cwerdna
Posts: 9375
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Sun May 22, 2016 3:20 pm

dwl wrote:The OP has done really well on a Gen 1. When discussing other battery types, the Gen 2 (MY2013 in US terms) can do well as shown by this taxi company in the UK where one has done over 150k miles and has only recently lost the first bar. https://mobile.twitter.com/candctaxis/status/732458879401877504

Wow! I think the (presumably) mild climate of the UK helps. I'm guessing it would be similar to the Seattle area. (I've only been in the UK once myself.) Any idea what the build month on that was?

I wonder if any mild climate 2013+ Leafs in North America (w/build date of 4/2013 or beyond) will be able to do that well.

We (or rather I) don't call model year 2013+ "Gen 2". Some people have invented the moniker Mk2 for it. I'd call it Gen 1.5 or a Gen 1 refresh, despite it looking totally different under the hood, OBC moved from back to the front + a bunch of other enhancements.

Gen 2 wouldn't be until we get a much longer range Leaf w/a totally different interior inside and out.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

WetEV
Posts: 2918
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Sun May 22, 2016 6:52 pm

aventineavenue wrote:
WetEV wrote:The OP has that as well. It's called living in the usually cool coastal Pacific Northwest. We get plenty of cool liquid most months. Rain happens.


Clever answer, but not the same as a liquid TMS, that keeps the battery 45F-85F *no matter what*


The climate mostly does keep the battery 45F to 85F here. My battery has only rarely been over 81F. TMS would have done almost nothing to reduce the high temperature exposure.

aventineavenue wrote:
WetEV wrote:A TMS wouldn't help battery life at all, might even hurt it, at least in the PNW.


Please do elaborate. It would seem cooling when hot and warming when cold (which the LEAF also does, but using flat pads) would only be of benefit.


Here it usually isn't hot or cold. It is usually cool. This morning, for example, it was 52F outside, and my battery was 60F. If I had a TMS, the battery would have been insulated against the cool outside, and the battery would have been warmer. How much warmer? Depends on how well insulated, and lots of other things. It is an interesting question, would a higher temperature on almost all days outweigh a higher temperature on a few days? See, when it's cool, rather than cold or hot, the TMS does not warm or cool the battery. And that's most of the time locally. But the added insulation keeps the battery warmer.

aventineavenue wrote:
WetEV wrote:Same 35 mile EV range? OK, but that doesn't mean the same battery capacity. That's about 3000 battery full cycles...The interesting question is how is EB's Volt still getting the same range on a reduced battery capacity?


The Volt never does full cycles. It can't.


Most Leaf drivers usually don't go below LBW, so they usually do a 75% cycle or less. The life of a battery is often quoted in "full cycles", even if the battery is only doing a 50% or an 80% cycle.

Correction: A Volt with 16 kWh battery, at 110k miles of electric driving at 3 miles per kWh is at about 2300 cycles, not almost 3000. Still a lot of cycles. Question still stands. How does the range stay the same on a reduced battery capacity?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

BernieTx
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:39 am
Delivery Date: 21 Feb 2015
Location: Austin, Tx

Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Mon May 23, 2016 5:16 am

The GM design spec calls for 82% capacity retention at 150k EV miles for a gen1 Volt; improved to 87% for gen2. For Eric's gen1 Volt car at 110k EV miles, GM would expect an average of 86% capacity retention. Eric might not notice a 10-15% capacity difference from when the car was new. source: http://insideevs.com/2016-chevrolet-vol ... des-video/
2014 Chevy Volt ...

aventineavenue
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:58 am

Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Mon May 23, 2016 6:28 am

WetEV wrote:The climate mostly does keep the battery 45F to 85F here. My battery has only rarely been over 81F. TMS would have done almost nothing to reduce the high temperature exposure.


I think you forget that batteries and their adjacent circuits heat up internally when being both discharged and charged/regen (especially quick charging) Ask a Tesla (or GM) engineer why their cars use it, and they's explain it doesn't juts operate base don ambient temp, rather on battery core temp, with multiple sensors.

Most Leaf drivers usually don't go below LBW, so they usually do a 75% cycle or less. The life of a battery is often quoted in "full cycles", even if the battery is only doing a 50% or an 80% cycle.

WetEV wrote:How does the range stay the same on a reduced battery capacity?


I think the wrong question is being asked; because the assumption is that the Volts with high mileage have double digit % reduced capacity just because similar age/mileage LEAFs do. I think the fact (that as some have measured, you'd have to ask them how) these Volts have something on the order of 1/2 of 1% capacity loss speaks volumes to the effectiveness of the TMS and SOC management...and perhaps the hard carbon anode as well, in terms of calendar like (for that we need another 5-10 years to really know).

aventineavenue
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:58 am

Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Mon May 23, 2016 6:37 am

RegGuheert wrote: Total gasoline burned = 205,000 miles / 35 miles/gallon = 5,857 gallons...Electricity cost = 27,500 kWh * 0.10 $/kWh = $2,750


Two incorrect assumptions, leading to incorrect conclusions about Volt vs Prius in this scenario. Erick in fact has average 38 mpg for the 200k+ hybrid miles, and a lifetime 59 mpg total gasoline consumption basis. (see voltstats dot net for full details on Sparkie the Volt) And he has workplace charging as a benefit so electric costs are less to him. But more importantly:

1) The Volt's intended purpose is simply to reduce gasoline consumption.
2) Erick/Sparkie still reduced gasoline consumption by 20% over a Prius. And he doesn't "hypermile", the Volt, like the LEAF and unlike the Prius is fun to drive! :)
3) The LEAF in the OP (and its 24kWh manufacturing impact) is now end of life at 150k miles (it was actually at end of life at 100k or sooner, as 70% capacity defines end of automotive life for a PEV), wheras the Volt has done over twice the total mileage while reducing gasoline consumption over a Prius, and will almost certainly exceed 150,000 EV miles...from a battery ~2/3 the size (therefore ~2/3 the manufacturing impact)

True that total net life cycle *emissions* for Erick between his Volt (Ohio electric + gas) and a Prius are probably close to a wash...but again, that's not the purpose of the car, rather as stated, it's to reduce gasoline consumption. And it may also save the driver $ over any gasoline only car, including the Prius (Erick's wife is an accountant, she did the numbers, and their Volt's total cost of ownership at this point is WAY lower than a '12 Prius would have been)

WetEV
Posts: 2918
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Mon May 23, 2016 8:40 am

aventineavenue wrote:
WetEV wrote:The climate mostly does keep the battery 45F to 85F here. My battery has only rarely been over 81F. TMS would have done almost nothing to reduce the high temperature exposure.


I think you forget that batteries and their adjacent circuits heat up internally when being both discharged and charged/regen (especially quick charging) Ask a Tesla (or GM) engineer why their cars use it, and they's explain it doesn't juts operate base don ambient temp, rather on battery core temp, with multiple sensors.


Several different aftermarket apps allow for reading the sensors in the battery pack in the Leaf. Not just ambient. 19.1C, 18.7C and 17.4C this morning, I'm too lazy to convert to F. Yes, I've seen the battery get hotter while charging and get hotter while driving when the air temperature is close to the battery pack temperature. I've also seen the battery get cooler while driving. TMS is not useful for cool climates and stable chemistry batteries. I agree that TMS is useful for hot places, and for unstable batteries that can undergo thermal runaway if not cooled.

Tesla uses a high energy density battery chemistry that can undergo thermal runaway. They need to actively cool the battery to prevent the car from torching. Isn't this true of GM Volt as well?

aventineavenue wrote:
WetEV wrote:How does the range stay the same on a reduced battery capacity?


I think the wrong question is being asked; because the assumption is that the Volts with high mileage have double digit % reduced capacity just because similar age/mileage LEAFs do.


The assumption is that Volt batteries will degrade like all Li-ion batteries do. There is no magic, only engineering. Now I do agree that the Volt probably does have better chemistry for longer life, but not that much better.


aventineavenue wrote:I think the fact (that as some have measured, you'd have to ask them how) these Volts have something on the order of 1/2 of 1% capacity loss


Not believable.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

aventineavenue
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:58 am

Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Mon May 23, 2016 10:33 am

WetEV wrote:Tesla uses a high energy density battery chemistry that can undergo thermal runaway. They need to actively cool the battery to prevent the car from torching. Isn't this true of GM Volt as well?


No, it's not, except for the hard carbon anode and some other design choices, Volt and LEAF batteries (as well as BMW i3) and most EVs are teh same chemistry, Lithium Manganese Oxide (spinel): LiMn2O4, which is safer then Teslas. Dispute it all you want, the fact is the Volt's TMS is for overall battery temperature management, not just hot climate abatement. This is a matter of engineering record.

WetEV wrote:The assumption is that Volt batteries will degrade like all Li-ion batteries do. There is no magic, only engineering. Now I do agree that the Volt probably does have better chemistry for longer life, but not that much better.


Again, except for the hard carbon anode in the Volt (known to extend calendar life), the LEAF and Volt battery chemistry are exactly the same. The only difference is the pack design engineering, insulation, and liquid TMS/SOC management. So it's almost a controlled experiment of same chemistry with and without engineering.

aventineavenue wrote:I think the fact (that as some have measured, you'd have to ask them how) these Volts have something on the order of 1/2 of 1% capacity loss


WetEV wrote:Not believable.


I suggest you do some research on the Volts with over 75,000 EV miles (~15 of which you can view on voltstats dot net, including mine) and you'll see that it's (very low degradation %) not only believable, it's actually true. But whether it's 1%, 2% or 5% or more doesn't really matter, as long as the vehicle's range and performance remains identical to when new. >10% and it would almost certain become evident. So...If/when it starts to drop off, then the degradation becomes meaningful, just as it is for a LEAF, except in the Volt's case it would typically result in greater gasoline usage rather than simply more frequent charging. To date, I have not seen a single confirmed report of this...and I have been looking for years.

DarthPuppy
Posts: 727
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:45 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Aug 2013

Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Mon May 23, 2016 9:08 pm

Congrats on getting so many miles on the Leaf!!! That is a real accomplishment. And it sounds like you saved a ton of money too. :D

Interesting how a posting about such an accomplishment evolved into a several page debate between Leaf/Volt/Prius and their respective merits/demerits.

Any chance Nissan will certify you as first to 150k? I remember Mercedes doing a commercial involving a guy who took his car to 1 million. Could be a good way to launch Leaf 2.0 (hint, hint).
'13 Leaf SL
'18 Honda Clarity Touring PHEV

downeykp
Forum Supporter
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Leaf Number: 1931
Location: Keaau, HI

Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Mon May 23, 2016 9:20 pm

DarthPuppy wrote:Congrats on getting so many miles on the Leaf!!! That is a real accomplishment. And it sounds like you saved a ton of money too. :D

Interesting how a posting about such an accomplishment evolved into a several page debate between Leaf/Volt/Prius and their respective merits/demerits.

Any chance Nissan will certify you as first to 150k? I remember Mercedes doing a commercial involving a guy who took his car to 1 million. Could be a good way to launch Leaf 2.0 (hint, hint).


Agreed, a great accomplishment turns into a debate. How unusual!
2011 Black Leaf SL+QC Vin. 1931
Res. 6-14-10 Order 1-25-11
EVSE: Mod'd Ver. 2 Nissan L1
Delivered 5-31-11

8 years 33000mi. 7 bars

39 Suniva panels 10.3kw with Enphase micro inverters my electricity cost $26 a month.

DarthPuppy
Posts: 727
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:45 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Aug 2013

Re: 150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

Mon May 23, 2016 9:23 pm

You only had to change the tires once? At what mileage?

Anyone with data on average range of the tires that come with the car? I understand brakes last longer on hybrids and EVs but don't understand why tires would be a saving point vs an ICE.
'13 Leaf SL
'18 Honda Clarity Touring PHEV

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