cdherman
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:22 am
Leaf Number: 22947
Location: Kansas City, Missouri

30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:18 pm

I have 2016 SV with 30kwh battery. Now in 2017, they all will be that way. The 96 month, 100k miles warranty to retain 9 bars is certainly a great improvement, at least at first blush. But I've been bothered and have tried reading every 30kwh thread out there to no avail to answer this question:

How do we know what "9 bars" will mean for the 30kwh pack? For all we know, the new 30kwh pack could have capacity bars that are 15-15-15-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6 There is evidence out there that the original 15-6.25-6.25 etc got changed during a software update to something more beneficial to Nissan. 4th bars are dropping at SOH numbers below 66% for most people.

This discussion my Mark Larson supports that: http://www.casteyanqui.com/ev/capacity_2016_30kwh/

Don't get me wrong. I am LOVING the 2016 with 30kwh pack. Perhaps that's because I was driving a 2012 that was down to 77%, with a slow charger and very inefficient heater. But the 30wkh pack makes the Leaf so much more forgiving. Now, its only the rare destination that you even bother to care.... Most of the time, you just drive, plug it in when remaining charge is under 50% or so.

Second question/observation on a similar bent: I babied the 2012. Never charged to 100%, bare minimum QCs, and drove at or below speed limit. What thanks did I get? Well at 4 years from purchase, I still had 77% capacity and no replacement battery was in sight. So I sold it at a very large depreciation. Battery was too good, and at the same time, not good enough......

Now, I ask myself how to behave with the the 2016 30kwh..... Baby it? Avoid 100% charges? Set the timers to charge for 120 min each night, which about balances my daily use, then pay attention to charge extra on days with extended drives. Hassle myself constantly, changing the timers to avoid the dreaded 100% charge that is not used immediately.........

And find myself in 2024 with an 8 year old, 70% capacity battery someday, asking myself again, why exactly did I go to all that effort to save Nissan the cost of a replacement battery.......

So I am now charging to 100% at every charge. And I drive 5 mph over the speed limit like I used to. And I have given up my ear muffs and driving gloves -- I keep it a toasty 72F in the cab. And when the windows fog over, I use the defrost (with 2012, I would open windows and play freeze out till the windows were clear.) Gosh. Feels like I am driving a modern car again...

My only fear is that I will discover too late that Nissan is NOT going to stand behind that battery staying at 67% or better....
2016 SV 30kwh, 2014 Blue Prius, 2011 Silver Prius, 2005 Subaru Forester X, 1965 F-100
8.2KW GridTie Solar
Sold 2012 SL 42k miles, 10 bars, 12/15/16 for $5999
Kansas City MO

sendler2112
Posts: 216
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:05 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Jan 2016
Location: Syracuse, NY USA

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:37 pm

I have a feeling Nissan is going to regret increasing the capacity warranty on the 30kWh battery based on some of the early feedback on the other threads. 100k miles is a bunch of cycles.

ElectricEddy
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:42 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2016
Leaf Number: 313506
Location: Nanaimo, B.C.

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:23 pm

cdherman wrote:I have 2016 SV with 30kwh battery. Now in 2017, they all will be that way. The 96 month, 100k miles warranty to retain 9 bars is certainly a great improvement, at least at first blush. But I've been bothered and have tried reading every 30kwh thread out there to no avail to answer this question:

How do we know what "9 bars" will mean for the 30kwh pack? For all we know, the new 30kwh pack could have capacity bars that are 15-15-15-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6 There is evidence out there that the original 15-6.25-6.25 etc got changed during a software update to something more beneficial to Nissan. 4th bars are dropping at SOH numbers below 66% for most people.

This discussion my Mark Larson supports that: http://www.casteyanqui.com/ev/capacity_2016_30kwh/

Don't get me wrong. I am LOVING the 2016 with 30kwh pack. Perhaps that's because I was driving a 2012 that was down to 77%, with a slow charger and very inefficient heater. But the 30wkh pack makes the Leaf so much more forgiving. Now, its only the rare destination that you even bother to care.... Most of the time, you just drive, plug it in when remaining charge is under 50% or so.

Second question/observation on a similar bent: I babied the 2012. Never charged to 100%, bare minimum QCs, and drove at or below speed limit. What thanks did I get? Well at 4 years from purchase, I still had 77% capacity and no replacement battery was in sight. So I sold it at a very large depreciation. Battery was too good, and at the same time, not good enough......

Now, I ask myself how to behave with the the 2016 30kwh..... Baby it? Avoid 100% charges? Set the timers to charge for 120 min each night, which about balances my daily use, then pay attention to charge extra on days with extended drives. Hassle myself constantly, changing the timers to avoid the dreaded 100% charge that is not used immediately.........

And find myself in 2024 with an 8 year old, 70% capacity battery someday, asking myself again, why exactly did I go to all that effort to save Nissan the cost of a replacement battery.......

So I am now charging to 100% at every charge. And I drive 5 mph over the speed limit like I used to. And I have given up my ear muffs and driving gloves -- I keep it a toasty 72F in the cab. And when the windows fog over, I use the defrost (with 2012, I would open windows and play freeze out till the windows were clear.) Gosh. Feels like I am driving a modern car again...

My only fear is that I will discover too late that Nissan is NOT going to stand behind that battery staying at 67% or better....


I am using the same charging pattern I used on my '13
When cold, 83% may sit for 48 hours, 100% once a week to balance.
When temps rise, 83% max charge , 100% every 2 weeks to balance.
I do not let the car sit for more than an hour max after full charge then reduce to at least 83%.

The 13 was at 19.4 Kwh when I traded it in on Oct 31, the 16 I now drive is holding at 27.4 Kwh.

I use the defroster and heat to reduce energy if needed to that 83% level on a short spin after charging to 100%.

Once I re-apply the window visors and the temp increases that short spin might become a little longer.

Yes I agree its nice to have good range again although I do tend to do the speed limit + 2Kms
Pearl White Sl
mfd date 09/16

cdherman
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:22 am
Leaf Number: 22947
Location: Kansas City, Missouri

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:33 pm

ElectricEddy wrote:
I am using the same charging pattern I used on my '13
When cold, 83% may sit for 48 hours, 100% once a week to balance.
When temps rise, 83% max charge , 100% every 2 weeks to balance.
I do not let the car sit for more than an hour max after full charge then reduce to at least 83%.

The 13 was at 19.4 Kwh when I traded it in on Oct 31, the 16 I now drive is holding at 27.4 Kwh.

I use the defroster and heat to reduce energy if needed to that 83% level on a short spin after charging to 100%.

Once I re-apply the window visors and the temp increases that short spin might become a little longer.

Yes I agree its nice to have good range again although I do tend to do the speed limit + 2Kms



Seems to me you are a slave to the inadequacies of the Leaf battery, and the Leaf computer. You have to charge to 100% and then drive around wasting energy to get your charge back to 83%???

I don't have time for that.

Once again, Nissan offers a battery warranty that is really vague. Just like the guys that got a new 24kwh battery on the last day of warranty, versus the suckers whose battery held out for 2 days too long and got no new battery, I am troubled a lot. The problem is that with most automobile issues, it is either working, or its not. Now with a battery, the same cannot be said. I really wish Nissan had offered some sort of pro-rated warranty. Would have made a lot more sense.

And I still don't really know what 8 or 9 bars really means....

And LeafSpy Pro tells me that today my 30kwh battery is at 100% SOH, with 28.2 kwh available. Mfg date 4/2016 and spent a hot summer in Missouri. So I don't really believe much of anything anymore...... LeafSpy does not tell all either.....
2016 SV 30kwh, 2014 Blue Prius, 2011 Silver Prius, 2005 Subaru Forester X, 1965 F-100
8.2KW GridTie Solar
Sold 2012 SL 42k miles, 10 bars, 12/15/16 for $5999
Kansas City MO

User avatar
jlv
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2014
Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:03 am

ElectricEddy wrote:I am using the same charging pattern I used on my '13
When cold, 83% may sit for 48 hours, 100% once a week to balance.
When temps rise, 83% max charge , 100% every 2 weeks to balance.
I do not let the car sit for more than an hour max after full charge then reduce to at least 83%.

The 13 was at 19.4 Kwh when I traded it in on Oct 31
How many mile were on your 13 when you traded it in?

My 13 is at 25K miles. I've charged it to 100% at work almost every weekday for the last 2.5 years. About half the time it would get to 100% charge by noon and then stay that way for 5-6 hours until the drive home (the other half of the time it would charge from noon-3PM, and sit at 100% for under 3 hours). I would not charge it at home, so it would sit at about 85% (or less if I drove it in the evening) until the morning.

Charging to 100% currently gets me to 20.5kWh. LeafSpy reports: AHr=61.19 SOH=93% Hx=94.18, 42 QCs, 1055 L1/L2

I don't live in a hot climate and the car is either in a garage or parking garage almost all the time.

I certainly didn't baby it at all.
'13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17)Tesla S 75D (3/17)
Model 3 reservation
(Probably no LEAF2 for me)

ElectricEddy
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:42 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2016
Leaf Number: 313506
Location: Nanaimo, B.C.

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:53 pm

jlv wrote:
ElectricEddy wrote:I am using the same charging pattern I used on my '13
When cold, 83% may sit for 48 hours, 100% once a week to balance.
When temps rise, 83% max charge , 100% every 2 weeks to balance.
I do not let the car sit for more than an hour max after full charge then reduce to at least 83%.

The 13 was at 19.4 Kwh when I traded it in on Oct 31
How many mile were on your 13 when you traded it in?

My 13 is at 25K miles. I've charged it to 100% at work almost every weekday for the last 2.5 years. About half the time it would get to 100% charge by noon and then stay that way for 5-6 hours until the drive home (the other half of the time it would charge from noon-3PM, and sit at 100% for under 3 hours). I would not charge it at home, so it would sit at about 85% (or less if I drove it in the evening) until the morning.

Charging to 100% currently gets me to 20.5kWh. LeafSpy reports: AHr=61.19 SOH=93% Hx=94.18, 42 QCs, 1055 L1/L2

I don't live in a hot climate and the car is either in a garage or parking garage almost all the time.

I certainly didn't baby it at all.

Mileage at trade in was approx 26K Kms.
I am sure I didn't have 22.5 Kwh from new as it was on the lot for 3 months and I didn't have Leaf spy until 6 months later.
Pearl White Sl
mfd date 09/16

User avatar
jlv
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2014
Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:41 pm

ElectricEddy wrote:Mileage at trade in was approx 26K Kms.
I am sure I didn't have 22.5 Kwh from new as it was on the lot for 3 months and I didn't have Leaf spy until 6 months later.

That's much less mileage than me (about 16K miles). My battery topped out at 22kWh when new. You had a lot more battery degradation in your 13 than mile.

I'm not sure keeping your battery at 83% did anything.
'13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17)Tesla S 75D (3/17)
Model 3 reservation
(Probably no LEAF2 for me)

SageBrush
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:12 pm

cdherman wrote:So I am now charging to 100% at every charge. And I drive 5 mph over the speed limit like I used to. And I have given up my ear muffs and driving gloves -- I keep it a toasty 72F in the cab. And when the windows fog over, I use the defrost (with 2012, I would open windows and play freeze out till the windows were clear.) Gosh. Feels like I am driving a modern car again...
So long as ~ 67% of new battery capacity is enough range for you the strategy makes sense. Otherwise you are increasing the odds that you will have a period of time that the LEAF is inadequate for your use
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

rcm4453
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:35 pm
Leaf Number: 304133
Location: Wayzata, MN

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:41 pm

SageBrush wrote:
cdherman wrote:So I am now charging to 100% at every charge. And I drive 5 mph over the speed limit like I used to. And I have given up my ear muffs and driving gloves -- I keep it a toasty 72F in the cab. And when the windows fog over, I use the defrost (with 2012, I would open windows and play freeze out till the windows were clear.) Gosh. Feels like I am driving a modern car again...
So long as ~ 67% of new battery capacity is enough range for you the strategy makes sense. Otherwise you are increasing the odds that you will have a period of time that the LEAF is inadequate for your use



Charging to 100% is really only charging to around 97%. Besides, what proof is there that charging to 100% all the time has really degraded the battery any faster? From what I've read on this forum it appears time & heat are the leading causes of degradation in the Leaf battery. People have babied their batteries by not charging to 100% all the time and still ended up with a lot of degradation anyway!

The average Joe isn't going to deal with manipulating charge timers on a daily basis, too much hassle! All the consumer should have to do is charge it and drive it, not be bothered with the daily task of setting up charge timers. Nissan should have found a way to keep the user selectable charge to 80% option if charging to 100% is a problem.

SageBrush
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:50 pm

rcm4453 wrote:Besides, what proof is there that charging to 100% all the time has really degraded the battery any faster?
I don't know what you would accept as proof, but Nissan telling me to avoid 100% charges if I want to prolong battery life is good enough for me, even if I didn't know about a mountain of information that shows that minimizing SOC deviation from 50% decreases battery aging. Admittedly this is a lot more true for NiMH than Li-X, but it still holds true for Lithium as e.g. Toyota's handling of the SOC range in their plug-ins demonstrate. Toyota wants the AER range to maintain through 150k miles so they baby the SOC.

A different question could be: how long do you want the battery to last, and what aging rate are you happy with ?
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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