rcm4453
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:35 pm
Leaf Number: 304133
Location: Wayzata, MN

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:52 pm

SageBrush wrote:
rcm4453 wrote:Besides, what proof is there that charging to 100% all the time has really degraded the battery any faster?
I don't know what you would accept as proof, but Nissan telling me to avoid 100% charges if I want to prolong battery life is good enough for me, even if I didn't know about a mountain of information that shows that minimizing SOC deviation from 50% decreases battery aging. Admittedly this is a lot more true for NiMH than Li-X, but it still holds true for Lithium as e.g. Toyota's handling of the SOC range in their plug-ins demonstrate. Toyota wants the AER range to maintain through 150k miles so they baby the SOC.

A different question could be: how long do you want the battery to last, and what aging rate are you happy with ?



Well Nissan never told me anything like that when I leased my Leaf. The average consumer is NOT going to bother with charge timers anyway, they will charge it like they charge their cell phones and not worry about it. Like I said if it mattered that much then why was there still lots of degradation with the people who didn't charge to 100% often? The question is why doesn't Nissan figure out a way to allow an 80% charge option if charging to 100% isn't good? You'd think it would be in their best interest to avoid degradation warranty claims. I'm thinking it's because they figured out that charging to 100% has very little to do with premature degradation. As for me personally, it's not worth the hassle, it's a car not an ongoing science project so I just charge it and drive it! If the battery degrades like crazy it will be the next guy's problem which is why I chose to lease.

SageBrush
Posts: 1115
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:06 am

rcm4453 wrote:Well Nissan never told me anything like that when I leased my Leaf.

RTFM
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

rcm4453
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:35 pm
Leaf Number: 304133
Location: Wayzata, MN

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:45 am

SageBrush wrote:
rcm4453 wrote:Well Nissan never told me anything like that when I leased my Leaf.

RTFM


Like I care what the manual says! Just admit it that there's no real proof with the members on here that babying their batteries did them any good when it comes to premature degradation. You said Nissan told you so, just calling you out on that, Nissan did not tell me that, has nothing to do with not reading the manual (how many consumers do?!?)

If you want to plan your daily life around charge timers to avoid 100% charging then knock yourself out! You will find in the end that it was a total waste of your time as your battery will have only degraded slightly less then the guy who just charges to 100% :lol:

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 6974
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:41 am

rcm4453 wrote:The question is why doesn't Nissan figure out a way to allow an 80% charge option if charging to 100% isn't good? You'd think it would be in their best interest to avoid degradation warranty claims. I'm thinking it's because they figured out that charging to 100% has very little to do with premature degradation.

For the bolded part, it WAS on US market 2011 to 2013 Leafs. I'm on my 2nd '13 Leaf.

IT was REMOVED on 2014+ US Leafs, most likely in order to look more competitive at 84 miles vs. almost everyone else that was in the 70s to 80s range of EPA mileage due to the stupid 80%/100% averaging rule.

If a potential buyer/lessee If they see a Leaf at 75 miles and most everyone else in that price range is above 75 miles (since the others don't have a charge to 80% setting), there's a 95+% chance that that customer will NOT know the backstory below and that a "75 mile" Leaf actually gets 84 miles on the EPA test at 100% charge.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/21/2013 ... y-84-in-n/
http://insideevs.com/2014-nissan-leaf-m ... -84-miles/

Yet, they left the feature in on 2015 Irish market Leafs: viewtopic.php?p=416013#p416013. I'm not clear what other markets still have it, but presumably many/most outside the US still have it.

Nissan leaves some portion of the battery not user accessible at the top and bottom, so 100% isn't really 100%.

I usually only charge to 80% on most work days via the 80% midnight to midnight timer trick (viewtopic.php?p=452029#p452029) unless I need the range and except on Fridays.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

User avatar
EVDRIVER
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Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:13 am

SageBrush wrote:
rcm4453 wrote:Besides, what proof is there that charging to 100% all the time has really degraded the battery any faster?
I don't know what you would accept as proof, but Nissan telling me to avoid 100% charges if I want to prolong battery life is good enough for me, even if I didn't know about a mountain of information that shows that minimizing SOC deviation from 50% decreases battery aging. Admittedly this is a lot more true for NiMH than Li-X, but it still holds true for Lithium as e.g. Toyota's handling of the SOC range in their plug-ins demonstrate. Toyota wants the AER range to maintain through 150k miles so they baby the SOC.

A different question could be: how long do you want the battery to last, and what aging rate are you happy with ?


I charged to 100% every time and never had degradation for 3 years. I know many people that did the same but I live in a cool climate. Hybrid batteries are subjected to more torture and heat by a long shot. Heat and sitting at high SOC is the main killer.

rcm4453
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:35 pm
Leaf Number: 304133
Location: Wayzata, MN

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:18 am

cwerdna wrote:
rcm4453 wrote:The question is why doesn't Nissan figure out a way to allow an 80% charge option if charging to 100% isn't good? You'd think it would be in their best interest to avoid degradation warranty claims. I'm thinking it's because they figured out that charging to 100% has very little to do with premature degradation.

For the bolded part, it WAS on US market 2011 to 2013 Leafs. I'm on my 2nd '13 Leaf.

IT was REMOVED on 2014+ US Leafs, most likely in order to look more competitive at 84 miles vs. almost everyone else that was in the 70s to 80s range of EPA mileage due to the stupid 80%/100% averaging rule.

If a potential buyer/lessee If they see a Leaf at 75 miles and most everyone else in that price range is above 75 miles (since the others don't have a charge to 80% setting), there's a 95+% chance that that customer will NOT know the backstory below and that a "75 mile" Leaf actually gets 84 miles on the EPA test at 100% charge.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/21/2013 ... y-84-in-n/
http://insideevs.com/2014-nissan-leaf-m ... -84-miles/

Yet, they left the feature in on 2015 Irish market Leafs: viewtopic.php?p=416013#p416013. I'm not clear what other markets still have it, but presumably many/most outside the US still have it.

Nissan leaves some portion of the battery not user accessible at the top and bottom, so 100% isn't really 100%.

I usually only charge to 80% on most work days via the 80% midnight to midnight timer trick (viewtopic.php?p=452029#p452029) unless I need the range and except on Fridays.



I'm aware of Nissan removing this feature after the 2013 MY, that's why I said "if Nissan can figure out a way". It probably was for EPA mileage reasons and because maybe the engineers determined that charging to 100% doesn't have that big of an impact on degradation. If it did present a big problem I'm sure they would have found a way to keep the 80% charge option since replacing battery packs under the degradation warranty is quite costly for Nissan. The unused portion at the top of the battery is most likely sufficient in avoiding excessive degradation when charging to 100%. Thanks for the links and info!

SageBrush
Posts: 1115
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:59 am

rcm4453 wrote:Like I care what the manual says!

You don't HAVE to read the manual, but stop complaining that your are uninformed. That manual is Nissan TELLING YOU what's up.
Last edited by SageBrush on Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

SageBrush
Posts: 1115
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:06 am

rcm4453 wrote: If it did present a big problem I'm sure they would have found a way to keep the 80% charge option since replacing battery packs under the degradation warranty is quite costly for Nissan.

This is what I was alluding to earlier. If the battery is 30% aged by 5y/60k miles it is not a warranty problem for Nissan, but it sure may be a problem for an owner if they were relying on some of that lost range for their use case.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

baustin
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:23 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2015
Leaf Number: 402162
Location: North Las Vegas, NV

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:10 am

Charging to 100% is not a problem. It is actually recommended, on a regular basis, to keep the cells balanced. Letting the battery sit at 100% for extended periods, especially in high heat, is what does the damage. The ideal charge level, for the battery sitting idle, is between 20% and 80%. If the car has the option, and it matches the range needs of the driver, regularly charging to 80% with periodic charges to 100% (for cell balancing) is supposed to extend the usable life of the battery. How much it will extend the battery life is unknown, and factors like climate and battery chemistry can have a greater impact on usable life than the 80% charge option.

I used the 80% charge option with periodic charges to 100% until the battery degraded enough that the range was no longer sufficient. I now charge to 100% weekdays and 80% on weekends, which possibly accelerates the degradation. Two summers in Las Vegas dropped the battery health from 89% to 65%. The car was manufactured in January 2013, so it has one of the batteries with the 2012 chemistry. I expect the fourth bar to drop sometime this spring. If I can get by with the range, I'll probably wait until the end of summer to have the battery replaced.
2013 Leaf SV - Cayenne Red - QC Port - LED Headlights

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11961
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:44 pm

ElectricEddy wrote:
I am using the same charging pattern I used on my '13
When cold, 83% may sit for 48 hours, 100% once a week to balance.
When temps rise, 83% max charge , 100% every 2 weeks to balance.
I do not let the car sit for more than an hour max after full charge then reduce to at least 83%.

The 13 was at 19.4 Kwh when I traded it in on Oct 31, the 16 I now drive is holding at 27.4 Kwh.

I use the defroster and heat to reduce energy if needed to that 83% level on a short spin after charging to 100%.

Once I re-apply the window visors and the temp increases that short spin might become a little longer.

Yes I agree its nice to have good range again although I do tend to do the speed limit + 2Kms


you are degrading your pack for no reason. there is no need to charge to 100% once a week. unless you plan to drive at least 40-50 miles, you shouldn't be doing it.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30 (build 10/2016); 22,003 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 101.21% kwh 28.1 QCs 190, L2's 213
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