Lost my 3rd bar today - 16,972 miles - my thoughts

It had to happen eventually. Still another kick in the teeth. What can you do.....

For full transparency, I have to admit I am convinced the 2011 introduction of this vehicle was a total fraud. Nissan flat out lied about several aspects of the release. That said, as an early adopter, I accepted these shortcomings as part of the trade-off.

Little back story - I was one of the original rubes to file my deposit and wait over a year for Nissan to deliver my new 2011 Leaf. Range of 99 miles - no problem - my work round trip is only 62 miles. I was stoked when I took delivery. I was driving one of the most technically advanced cars on the road. I ignored my dealer salesman handing me a couple of coupons to "take care of my first two oil changes" - while I finished the receiving paperwork. He was a nice guy. This car was cool in every respect. And I'd be styling on the HOV lane.

Within the first week, I began to realize the fraud. I was told the estimated range of the Leaf was 99 miles - I had to go a little more than half of that at 62 miles. With a little more left over to make a lunch run. Well - what we have all come to learn is the only way the Leaf gets 99 miles is if you push it off a cliff, or roll downhill. My round trip commute was 60 miles of freeway - San Diego freeways - traveling at a minimum of 70 miles per hour. When the weather warmed and I needed to use my A/C, I found I was limping home at the end of the night. No lunch. No dentist. No errands.

I got all kinds of "good" advice. Slow down to 60 mph. Crack your windows open. Find a route where you can use all surface streets. Being denied charging at a Nissan dealer because I didn't buy it there. Put a generator in the trunk. ICE cars blocking the few EV charging spots without consequence. Getting a ticket from a motorcycle cop for using the car pool on-ramp (the judge threw it out). Arg.

Within 6 months I gave up and had to buy another car. The Leaf sat parked in my garage - driven rarely if ever - for the next 5 years.

I retired in December and liquidated the commute vehicle. I'm now back in the Leaf when it fits my mileage needs. I absolutely love the concept of the EV, and will always own one. Just "#NeverNissan".

BTW: The Nissan dealers have stopped calling me to "trade-in". They know better.

I've monitored this board for the past 6 years. There are some incredibly smart people here -- I'm an engineer by education, but had to sell out for the MBA so I could actually make some money. These Leaf-technies are really good. Really.

Here are some questions I still have that have received all kinds of inconsistent responses:

1. When rolling downhill I was always told to be in "eco" for regen. Now people are saying to coast in "N" ?
2. Why do my regen bubbles appear and disappear while driving?
3. Why did Nissan put two clocks in the Leaf that are not sync'd?
4. On flat roads, should I be in "eco" or "D"? How about climbing hills?
5. What is the correct replacement wiper blade ? (Really?)
6. Is there any logic to consider the replacement batteries?
7. Why is it after 6 years on the road our insurance companies still rob us blind for collision coverage?
8. Why, after 4 years of no problem charging, do I now get the red screen on my Blink, screaming at me?
9. Why would anyone - with all we know and with the current market offerings - buy a 2017 Leaf?

I will buy a new EV in the next 12 months. If Trump comes through with his new tax plan, I'll get a Model-S. If not, the Bolt is looking fine. I'll just give it a cycle to shake out the bugs.

I truly believe EVs are the future, and I love the concept. Just #NeverNissan.

At what state of charge was the Leaf stored for 5 years?

I normally ran it at least 2-3 times per month. Battery charge was normally maintained at 50-60%. When it ran down, I'd bring it back to 80%.

I think that the "second wave" of Leaf drivers, especially the ones driving Leafs built after 3/2013, view the car more kindly. Yes, the range is nowhere near 99 miles, but most of us don't have to drive 70+MPH to keep up with traffic, so we have an actual range of about 70 miles - maybe 50 in frigid weather. We will be the ones getting a 2018 Leaf, and are the ones who got a 2016 or 2017, with an actual 100 mile range (in mild weather, of course).

Coasting downhill is best IF you don't have to use the brakes to hold your speed down, and IF you aren't in the midst of heavy traffic. Otherwise Eco or D will probably work better.

Sad story, and although I am delighted in my new LEAF ownership I agree that Nissan is way less than satisfactory. I wish I had news to lift your spirits and I certainly understand your anger.

Through hindsight, I suspect that your battery aging is in part due to garaging the car. If the space is not conditioned or ventilated, it can be 80-90F for a good part of the year, even in San Diego. I am fortunate to benefit from the experience of early adopters like yourself, and only park in my garage in the winter months. From March, the car lives outside under a tree on earth* (not asphalt or concrete) while at home; and I plan to approach those places where we park the LEAF away from home to see if they will agree to paint a parking space or three on my dime.

*I checked ground temperatures with an IR gauge today: 35C on the grass in the sun, 40C on concrete in the sun, and 20C on earth that had been partly shaded.

Sorry to hear of your tale of woe. Mine has been similar - I too own a 2011 SE, ordered the day that Nissan opened up their reservation site. And yes, even though I got my battery replaced with a "lizard" battery under warranty, I feel that we got sold a bill of goods up front when Nissan quoted 80% of capacity after 8 years. I don't think you could get that in the upper regions of Alaska, much less in Arizona. Sigh.

Anyway, I'll answer those questions that I can, based on my understanding and experience...

LeafPowerIsIxE said:

Here are some questions I still have that have received all kinds of inconsistent responses:

1. When rolling downhill I was always told to be in "eco" for regen. Now people are saying to coast in "N" ?
2. Why do my regen bubbles appear and disappear while driving?
3. Why did Nissan put two clocks in the Leaf that are not sync'd?
4. On flat roads, should I be in "eco" or "D"? How about climbing hills?
5. What is the correct replacement wiper blade ? (Really?)
6. Is there any logic to consider the replacement batteries?
7. Why is it after 6 years on the road our insurance companies still rob us blind for collision coverage?
8. Why, after 4 years of no problem charging, do I now get the red screen on my Blink, screaming at me?
9. Why would anyone - with all we know and with the current market offerings - buy a 2017 Leaf?

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1. I believe that coasting in N (assuming that you don't pick up TOO much speed) is the most efficient. Regen is only 20-25% efficient at best, and I think coasting (and rolling back down to 55-60 when the road flattens out) will get you further in the end.

2. As the battery ages (and especially as you lose 3-4 bars), the battery can no longer accept high rates of charge from the regen system, especially when cold, so the regen circles disappear to let you know that you're not regenerating as much as you might with a warm battery with little capacity loss. Yet another frustration to losing capacity.

3. I presume that's a rhetorical question, but if you want an answer, I'd guess that Clarion already had a clock in their infotainment system, and Nissan had already put one in their electronic dash controller. And since the Clarion unit was likely a modified off-the-shelf unit, nobody wanted to pay to make the clocks sync up. But that's just a guess.

4. If you're not acceleration or decelerating, they're both the same. But since Eco remaps the throttle to do more gentle acceleration, you'll likely have a bit of a win in that mode. It's the same as when you have cruise control on - when it's on, it doesn't matter whether you're in Eco or Drive .

5. Sorry, haven't had to replace mine. But I think you're supposed to replace the entire "cartridge" (ie. everything attached to the arm), not just the blade. There's a thread here, if you trust it...

6. I presume you're talking about the traction battery, not the 12v accessory battery. It all depends on your circumstances. If you can live with the LEAF's limitations for another 5 years and you otherwise like the car, it would likely be cheaper to replace the battery than purchasing a different car. Think of it like an engine rebuild in an ICE car...

7. Sorry, can't answer that one.

8. Check the Blink threads. If you never had the manufacturer's suppot group out to do it, the wiring in the J1772 connector isn't attached well, and needs to be tightened. That's also the cause of some reported heat damage, and why the manufacturer limited the charging rate on your Blink to 24A, IIRC. If you're not able to do the mod yourself, I'd suggest replacing the cable and having an electrician install it. Or replace the entire EVSE with a more modern unit.

9. Sorry, can't answer that one either. Knowing what I now know, I certainly wouldn't do it. Of course, I'm still waiting (semi-) patiently for my Tesla Model 3 to come off of the production line...

LeafPowerIsIxE said:

9. Why would anyone - with all we know and with the current market offerings - buy a 2017 Leaf?

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I just got a 2016 S30 Leaf - identical to the 2017. It is my second Leaf. The actual price after discounts and rebates was $16,000. So the question you are asking is why anyone would choose a well built EV from a major manufacturer with a range of over 100 miles and an out the door price of less than half that of a Bolt or the non-existent T3? Doesn't it all come down to price and the range required to meet your needs?

Wow! new S 30 for only 16K (I assume AFTER the federal and state tax credits). That car will serve you until 2024-25 before you need to think of another..

I am at 21,000 miles on my 2016 SV with 30Kwh battery pack....not the slightest drop in range or no. of capacity bars. Still doing my 86 mile daily commute without being range anxious...car charges up to 100+ miles of range every single day.

It is very unfortunate that Nissan did not think of a 2016 30Kwh battery retrofit offering for all the 2011-2015 models. Unless a Leaf's 60% of total advertised range is acceptable for daily needs, I would not recommend buying a Nissan Leaf - just lease it for 3 years instead. A car that cannot last 100,000 miles (at the least) without needing a major repair like a battery replacement is not a sound investment.

Taking on the perspective of the OP, LeafPowerIsIxE , I too will likely join the 3 bar loser club with my own 2011 LEAF. The point of overstating the range is articulated well. I won't try to answer 1-9....

That said, my own expectations were much lower and I remain happy. With a batter pack that hold 50% of the original charge, my own local driving needs will be met most of the time... On the other hand, some of the expensive component failures do concern me.... Therein is the difference....

I do have to agree with mihird that Nissan's disposable business model, typical of most car companies, would be better optimized by having a goodwill based pricing, rather than profit monetized, for battery pack upgrades...

The overstating of range and battery longevity was never quite handled by the lawsuit and settlement... I am not likely to buy another Nissan as I think the battery issues have been poorly handled and speak for Nissan ethos...

Hoping for no major component failures for a LONG time.

mihird said:

I would not recommend buying a Nissan Leaf - just lease it for 3 years instead. A car that cannot last 100,000 miles (at the least) without needing a major repair like a battery replacement is not a sound investment.

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Or you could buy a used Leaf for the same cost as a 3 year lease and at the end...you still have a car you can drive, sell, or salvage. I agree that a new Leaf is definitely not a sound investment.

OP's post points out the extreme dominance of calendar losses in the 2011 LEAF battery. After six years and only 17,000 miles, the third capacity bar still disappears. Ultimately, the only way to get a lot of miles out of the orginal 2011 LEAF battery was to live in a cool climate and drive it a LOT.

Today is the fifth anniversary of LEAF ownership for us: we purchased a 2011 demo vehicle with 2011 miles on the odometer on March 16, 2012. Like JimSouCal, I made sure that my expectations were well below Nissan's promises before purchasing the LEAF. As such, we are still very happy with the LEAF. However, we are now at about 41,000 miles and are also about about to lose our third capacity bar. Frankly, the amount of actual range available in summertime is still fairly reasonable, but in wintertime we have a single cell-pair (#37) which appears to have much higher resistance than the rest in the cold. As a result, that single cell-pair restricts our wintertime range to around 50 miles IF it is not below about 10F AND IF it is not too windy. In those conditions, the range drops significantly and the personal risk of getting stranded get rather severe.

Interestingly, our annual mileage in the LEAF has INCREASED over the years. Free QCs located at convenient spots have certainly helped enable that growth in LEAF usage.

Overall we are still happy with our purchase. I'm glad that we were able to help support the modern growth of BEVs with this purchase. It appears that growth in BEVs worldwide is very healthy and there is absolutely no way to "put the genie back in the bottle." My son has a Tesla Model 3 on order (with no place to charge it!) and the second-generation BEVs look to be quite a big step up from our humble LEAFs.

Answers from the point of view of a 2016 leaf owner:

1. In a 2016 there's a special B-mode which is like engine breaking in an ICE but instead it does extra regen.
3. In a 2016 there's an option to hide the clock on the infotainment system. But it does annoyingly still have 2 unsynced clocks.
4. Eco is still in 2016s. It seems that all Eco does is cut power output in half whn pushing the pedal unless you floor it. I absolutely hate Eco mode. It makes the car feel like a golf cart, and I bought the car to feel like a car. I refuse to have to compromise in order to drive an EV. See also #9.
6. I wouldn't pay for a new battery for a 2011 if I was you. Maybe for a 2013... but if you had a 2013 I think you'd be in a lot better shape now. IMO that's the price of being an early adopter.... Never buy a car in its first model year. We'll see if 2017 bolt owners are hurting in a few years or if Chevy learned enough from Volt the first time around.
9. I bought a 2016 new recently. Right now the new 2016s can be had for a good price (after tax credit, almost as low as a lightly used 2015). The 2016 has the larger battery, 30 kWh. I don't regularly drive it more than 20-25 miles, but I have occasionally and it will do 90+ miles at 70 mph. Why would anyone buy a 2017? If it could be had for similarly good prices (10k+ off MSRP *before* federal tax credit) then it is actually a *good* price for a car. If they are anywhere close to MSRP then I don't know why you wouldn't wait for 2018 to see if Bolt comes down in price or up in availability or if Tesla pulls it out and actually delivers something (doubtful).

I'll give a shot at a few:

LeafPowerIsIxE said:

1. When rolling downhill I was always told to be in "eco" for regen. Now people are saying to coast in "N" ?

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The answer is: it depends. Three things it depends most on: desired speed, slope of hill, length of hill.

Think of two extremes: A long, steep hill - and a short shallow hill. Longer hills will favor using regen, shorter hills will favor coasting.

LeafPowerIsIxE said:

2. Why do my regen bubbles appear and disappear while driving?

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The amount of regenerative braking is limited by the internal resistance of the pack which is affected by temperature and amount of capacity the pack has lost, state of charge (the higher the state of charge, the lower the maximum charge rate) and vehicle speed (maximum allowable regen is reduced at higher vehicle speeds.

With a fresh battery, the maximum regen rate was high enough that all regen bubbles nearly always showed up. But as the battery loses more capacity and internal resistance goes up, the maximum regen rate goes down and thus factors such as vehicle speed are more visible.

LeafPowerIsIxE said:

9. Why would anyone - with all we know and with the current market offerings - buy a 2017 Leaf?

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My LEAF is a couple months away from dropping to 7 bars. Will probably lose it before my 6 year anniversary. This is a LEAF that has seen 7 temp bars maybe once or twice and only briefly. The rest of the time it sits at 5 temp bars most of winter and 6 temp bars from late spring to autumn. Pretty moderate temperatures.

Range absolute sucks now. Currently around 45 miles maximum. Not helped by by the Continental PureContact tires I recently got (do NOT buy these if you value efficiency). Thanks to the tires and lack of regen, have a hard time getting efficiency above 4 mi/kWh.

80% charge got me home at VLBW the other day - 30 miles at 3.7 mi/kWh. 100% charge gets low-mid 30 miles to LBW. Any short side trip triggers LBW - I've hit LBW probably 30 times so far this year. Always charge to 100%.

The battery in this thing is a heaping pile of crap. Now approaching 6 years certain things are showing some signs of age: the huge headlights are starting to show UV damage along with the rear spoiler paint. The headlights need a fresh clear-coat and the spoiler needs to be repainted.

All that said - aside from the battery the car has been reliable and I still enjoy driving it. A fresh 24 kWh battery would be great. A 30 kWh battery would let me do all my local driving and many of my shorter road trips with ease (a single QC stop at most). Medium-to-long trips would still necessitate a different vehicle. I have been tempted to find a cheap 12-bar 2013+ LEAF - the '13+ seem to be more efficient than the '11-12 as well. And I hear that the '17 LEAFs have huge discounts on them - Might be able to get one for $15k after all rebates - with it costing that little you care a lot less if you only get 5-6 years out of the battery.

1. In a 2016 there's a special B-mode which is like engine breaking in an ICE but instead it does extra regen.
3. In a 2016 there's an option to hide the clock on the infotainment system. But it does annoyingly still have 2 unsynced clocks.
4. Eco is still in 2016s. It seems that all Eco does is cut power output in half whn pushing the pedal unless you floor it. I absolutely hate Eco mode. It makes the car feel like a golf cart, and I bought the car to feel like a car. I refuse to have to compromise in order to drive an EV.

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All of the above features are found in the 2013 and newer Leafs, and Eco mode is found in all Leafs, in some form. It takes a little getting used to, and you will hate it as long as you use D mode mainly, but it actually gives better acceleration control, and just by pressing a bit harder the car will still accelerate briskly. D mode is fun, but it's too "touchy" for low speed cornering and maneuvering. I rarely use it on my 2013, but will likely use it often on my next, long range Leaf.

75 miles is doable at speeds up to 90km/h 56mph (about 85-90% of the whole trip).
I've traveled with 2014 Leaf to one of my destinations that is exactly that far.
This also requires clean road surface. And leaves around 2-3% in the pack, which is
pretty much zero for common sense.


I wasn't stupid enough to buy an EV without test-driving it before, including range test.

I have test driven 30kWh Leaf and it gets 20 extra miles which is exactly what it should get
if we compare 24kWh pack with 30kWh pack.

as another early adopter (march 2011) i can't believe anyone could loose 3 bars at only 16k miles - especially around the SD area. Yuma? Yes. The record high mileage for 3 bars lost was over 70k miles. We lost our 3rd around 63K miles & now have over 75k miles. Supposedly the lost bars is going to slow ... but they've been at pretty regular intervals for us. I still have a couple mouse pads from when we picked up our new ride. It CLEARLY advertises right on it, "100 miles of range". Too funy. Good thing its only 19½ miles to work - & we have a dozen employee EVSE's if needed. Oh well, the class action at least got us a bit of a bone, if/when it comes time to buy another traction pack. It's the uber crummy upholstery & extra thin paint that bugs me more than the Leaf's passive thermal management. but - that's the price we pay, for being a sort of beta tester. Won't ever buy Nissan again. We're picking up our Model X this monday.
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