5 Minute Cycle Timer to Charge Leaf - Is it safe?

ermackey · Mar 24, 2017

I have looked everywhere (including this site) and do not see an answer to this problem.

I live in Juneau, AK. I am on a Peak rate. However, the peak rate is not a time-of-day rate. The peak rate is a useage peak rate where I am charges $10 per KW used in my highest 15 minute "peak" in a single billing cycle. In addition, I still have to pay for total KW in a billing cycle. Therefore, If I am charged $120 for my total KW in a single billing cycle, but my highest 15-minute peak is 15KW, my total bill would be (15KW x $10) = $150; plus the $120 total KW charge for a total bill of $270. Reduce the peak useage and I can greatly reduce my bill.

Clear as mud?

Anyway...

If I can cut my useage in half at night when charging my Nissan Leaf, I can cut my bill by about $80/month by reducing my peak useage during charging. My question is is it safe for a battery to have a frequent on/off cycle of 5-7 minute intervals? If so, I can charge a cycle timer. If not, I need to search for a lower amp L2 Charger.

I would prefer the cycle timer so I could override the charge in an emergency and during winter when peak use is not as much of an issue. Nov - Feb will always be high useage for me.

I drive a 2014 Leaf SV

BillHolz · Mar 24, 2017

Your best bet to lower your demand charge from charging your Leaf is to use an EVSE that allows adjusting the max current. Several are available that allow setting the max current such as OpenEVSE, and JESLA.

Since you already charge at night when your other loads should be minimal, you may need to consider the peak load during the day. Regardless of how low you set your charge rate, if the day time peak demand is greater than night time demand, lowering night time demand will not lower your demand charge.

Keeping your demand charge low requires the cooperation of everyone in the house because any demand spike during a 15 minute demand window will cost you for the whole month.

If your listed delivery date is correct, look at your billing statements for the past year to figure out what your daytime demand has been without charging an electric car and use that to figure out how low you need to go to not cause your demand charge to go up.

ermackey · Mar 24, 2017

Thanks for the reply. But as I am married and my wife will not be pleased with another $300-500 purchase of aother EV charger, is it safe to use a cycle charge or will it ruin the battery? Or is this just plain unknown.

sub3marathonman · Mar 24, 2017

ermackey said:
I live in Juneau, AK. I am on a Peak rate. However, the peak rate is not a time-of-day rate. The peak rate is a useage peak rate where I am charges $10 per KW used in my highest 15 minute "peak" in a single billing cycle. In addition, I still have to pay for total KW in a billing cycle. Therefore, If I am charged $120 for my total KW in a single billing cycle, but my highest 15-minute peak is 15KW, my total bill would be (15KW x $10) = $150; plus the $120 total KW charge for a total bill of $270. Reduce the peak useage and I can greatly reduce my bill.

Wow, that is a brutal electric rate!! I would be outraged being charged for "peak" demand during an off-peak demand period for the electric company. My local electric utility was going to implement such a rate, but about half the "peak" charge, but after my letter to the editor describing how it was going to kill new PV installations here in Polk County ("Lakeland Electric Casts Long Shadow") they actually listened, and revised the rate to charging only demand during "peak" time-frame.

I can't imagine a 15kw peak demand either. Except it must be for heating the house? I'd find a wood-burning stove immediately. But it can't be that in Alaska people would use electric for heating could it?

The problem is the 2014 LEAF is pulling 6.6kw, so yes, leaving it on for the 15 minutes would cost $66 if it was additional. :shock: I'm not sure how the electric company is calculating the peak demand for the 15 minutes, here it is peak demand over 30 minutes with six 5-minute blocks used to calculate. If your company is using three 5-minute blocks, it is possible that even charging for just 5 minutes per interval could still throw you into two of the three blocks, meaning you'd still be adding 4.4kw of peak demand. So in my opinion that just isn't a viable option. Even doing on one minute per fifteen minutes, you could still be into two of the three time blocks.

If I was in this situation, I would try to coordinate a time frame where the LEAF could charge without having anything else coming on. You could invest in a Brultech GEM system (http://www.brultech.com/), but that would involve an investment of $400 or so, although you might be able to get by monitoring just a few circuits for $200. That would allow you to see what was coming on, and how much electricity it was using. I believe it is possible to get "demand breakers" that would automatically stop their circuit when demand hit a certain level, but that cost is probably not cheap either.

The other option I'd be looking into is PV solar with a battery backup. You won't be able to offset 15kw, but you could have a large enough battery bank to offset maybe 5kw or so. But the rate plan makes it so difficult, because you've got to be recharging the batteries too at some point, in the winter I imagine Alaska isn't basking in the sun. And now you're once again into a rather large investment for the batteries, although the PV panels might be reasonable.

Another alternative, it might be possible to have the LEAF 120V charger modified by EVSE Upgrade (Phil) and it might be possible to set a lower amperage for charging on 240V. Once again, another $300 spent there though.

As a final option, I'd strongly think about just using the 120V charger supplied with the LEAF. It is slightly inefficient, but I went for over a year, and many others use it exclusively. The only reason I did ultimately upgrade was because I was bothered by the inefficiency, but for a $10/kw peak demand charge, I'd live with inefficient.

BrockWI · Mar 24, 2017

I wouldn't think "cycling" the evse will hurt anything except bump up your total number of charges the car keeps track of

Yes it cost more but I went with an open EVSE from Brad https://www.dropbox.com/s/hc6ei1dkkqwbiwz/BSAelectronics%20EVSE%20flyer.pdf?dl=0 and really like it, you can set it to charge from 120vac @ 6 amps to 240vac @ 28amps and it is easy to adjust anywhere between.

You didn't say but you must have a L2 evse? I would second the idea of just using the stock 120vac evse and save the big one for those quick charges. I am just thinking 5 minutes out of every 15 is 20 an hour so 1/3 of 28 amps, lets call it 10 amps or 2,400w an hour cycling. The stock evse will get you half that just running flat out...

ermackey · Mar 24, 2017

sub3marathonman said:
ermackey said:

I live in Juneau, AK. I am on a Peak rate. However, the peak rate is not a time-of-day rate. The peak rate is a useage peak rate where I am charges $10 per KW used in my highest 15 minute "peak" in a single billing cycle. In addition, I still have to pay for total KW in a billing cycle. Therefore, If I am charged $120 for my total KW in a single billing cycle, but my highest 15-minute peak is 15KW, my total bill would be (15KW x $10) = $150; plus the $120 total KW charge for a total bill of $270. Reduce the peak useage and I can greatly reduce my bill.

Click to expand...

Wow, that is a brutal electric rate!! I would be outraged being charged for "peak" demand during an off-peak demand period for the electric company. My local electric utility was going to implement such a rate, but about half the "peak" charge, but after my letter to the editor describing how it was going to kill new PV installations here in Polk County ("Lakeland Electric Casts Long Shadow") they actually listened, and revised the rate to charging only demand during "peak" time-frame.

I can't imagine a 15kw peak demand either. Except it must be for heating the house? I'd find a wood-burning stove immediately. But it can't be that in Alaska people would use electric for heating could it?

The problem is the 2014 LEAF is pulling 6.6kw, so yes, leaving it on for the 15 minutes would cost $66 if it was additional. :shock: I'm not sure how the electric company is calculating the peak demand for the 15 minutes, here it is peak demand over 30 minutes with six 5-minute blocks used to calculate. If your company is using three 5-minute blocks, it is possible that even charging for just 5 minutes per interval could still throw you into two of the three blocks, meaning you'd still be adding 4.4kw of peak demand. So in my opinion that just isn't a viable option. Even doing on one minute per fifteen minutes, you could still be into two of the three time blocks.

If I was in this situation, I would try to coordinate a time frame where the LEAF could charge without having anything else coming on. You could invest in a Brultech GEM system (http://www.brultech.com/), but that would involve an investment of $400 or so, although you might be able to get by monitoring just a few circuits for $200. That would allow you to see what was coming on, and how much electricity it was using. I believe it is possible to get "demand breakers" that would automatically stop their circuit when demand hit a certain level, but that cost is probably not cheap either.

The other option I'd be looking into is PV solar with a battery backup. You won't be able to offset 15kw, but you could have a large enough battery bank to offset maybe 5kw or so. But the rate plan makes it so difficult, because you've got to be recharging the batteries too at some point, in the winter I imagine Alaska isn't basking in the sun. And now you're once again into a rather large investment for the batteries, although the PV panels might be reasonable.

Another alternative, it might be possible to have the LEAF 120V charger modified by EVSE Upgrade (Phil) and it might be possible to set a lower amperage for charging on 240V. Once again, another $300 spent there though.

As a final option, I'd strongly think about just using the 120V charger supplied with the LEAF. It is slightly inefficient, but I went for over a year, and many others use it exclusively. The only reason I did ultimately upgrade was because I was bothered by the inefficiency, but for a $10/kw peak demand charge, I'd live with inefficient.

In AELP's defense, the standard rate for electric is 13 cents. That is reduced to 5.9 cents on my peak rate. 100% of our electric is hydro, so they are encouraging consistent useage across users. It is not easy to turn hydro up and down and requires a more consistent useage rate. Hence the peak rate for electric car and electric heat pump users. Due to our geographic situation (Mountains to our east), smoke has nowhere to go and there is a wood burn ban for most of winter unless you qualify for an exemption due to income or grandfathered wood stove as only source of heat. Cheap heat is important. Breathing is more important.

When my current charger dies, I have a hunch variable watt draw will be a standard feature in most chargers. If not, I will get an Open EVSE that offers it. I just think smart chargers will be more the norm.

I have a meter monitor and can monitor my use in real-time and also historically as it saves second-by-second readings (myeyedro.com). My current minimum draw is 2.5kw/hr for any 15 minute draw. When heaters and appliances turn on during awake hours, I get a consistent 3 - 5 kw draw/15 minutes, depending on the temp outside and activities in the home. My plan is to alternate my water heater opposite of my car charger, both on cycling timers, so that I can stay below a 5-6 kw draw/15 minute peak. If that happens, my bill in summers would be about $80 in spring/summer/fall. During winter when electrical loads skyrocket, the cycling is unnecessary and can be disabled. I will have 8 - 10 KW draws/15 minutes regardless.

I will await other opinions on this before I install something. I do not want to break my car.

WetEV · Mar 24, 2017

Another vote for "just using the 120V charger supplied with the LEAF."

Oils4AsphaultOnly · Mar 24, 2017

OP, you haven't mentioned how much daily driving you'd do? I'm in the "use the 120V charge" camp as I can't imagine the 15-min cycling being good for the relay inside the EVSE. But if you drive more than 40 miles each day, then the travel evse just won't charge your car enough.

But looking at your numbers: 2.5kw minimum, 5kw summer peak, and winter being MUCH higher, you might want to do 120V during the summer (only adds 1.2kw during the night), as the warmer weather will mean less charging wasted, and then switch to the 240v during the winter. Just not a big fan of the cycle-timer solution.

ermackey · Mar 24, 2017

WetEV said:
Another vote for "just using the 120V charger supplied with the LEAF."

Sorry I failed to address this option earlier. I would prefer to avoid this option, if possible, for the following reasons:
1. Wife is due to give birth in June. Using the 120v is not optimal for her and she is currently ill-tempered.
2. Juneau, AK is in a rainforest. Seriously. We have between 200 - 260 days of rain annually. Mean = 222 days; median = 255 days. Safety of plugging and unplugging is a concern as increased frequency = increased risk.
3. 120v would take up to 17 hours to fully charge car. While not frequent, a full charge is sometimes necessary.
4. At 220v, we could always "override" the cycle switch in a pinch or disable in winter when peak use is not as much of an issue because of heavy overall usage.
5. I would rather not have the conversation with my wife about why she can't use the $600 220v charger we bought and installed.
6. Did I mention she is pregnant and ill-tempered.

All of this being said, I have not closed the door on this option. I would just rather examine other alternatives before embarking on the 220v EV Charger turned into paperweight option.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
OP, you haven't mentioned how much daily driving you'd do? I'm in the "use the 120V charge" camp as I can't imagine the 15-min cycling being good for the relay inside the <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSECompare EVSE equipment</a>. But if you drive more than 40 miles each day, then the travel <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSECompare EVSE equipment</a> just won't charge your car enough.

But looking at your numbers: 2.5kw minimum, 5kw summer peak, and winter being MUCH higher, you might want to do 120V during the summer (only adds 1.2kw during the night), as the warmer weather will mean less charging wasted, and then switch to the 240v during the winter. Just not a big fan of the cycle-timer solution.

I am sensing a theme.

desiv · Mar 24, 2017

Some quick thoughts:
I would expect you have and use an L1 AND an L2 option..

ermackey said:
1. Wife is due to give birth in June. Using the 120v is not optimal for her and she is currently ill-tempered.

I don't remember using 120v to be any different from using L2. As long as you leave it plugged in, it's the same plug into the Leaf..

ermackey said:
2. Juneau, AK is in a rainforest. Seriously. We have between 200 - 260 days of rain annually. Mean = 222 days; median = 255 days. Safety of plugging and unplugging is a concern as increased frequency = increased risk.

Is this outdoors? Wondering why you'd be plugging and unplugging and worried about rain?? Perhaps a waterproof box to keep the L1 safe, dry and plugged in?

ermackey said:
3. 120v would take up to 17 hours to fully charge car. While not frequent, a full charge is sometimes necessary.

If you also have an L2, that is still an option. You can use the L1 most of the time, and the L2 when needed...

ermackey said:
4. At 220v, we could always "override" the cycle switch in a pinch or disable in winter when peak use is not as much of an issue because of heavy overall usage.

As above, have both and use L2 when needed..

ermackey said:
5. I would rather not have the conversation with my wife about why she can't use the $600 220v charger we bought and installed.

Good point, but just explain that the L2 is great for when you need more charge, and the L1 is just to save money because our your electric company..

ermackey said:
6. Did I mention she is pregnant and ill-tempered.

I know lots of people that are ill-tempered without being pregnant, so it is what it is.. ;-)
I would think heated seats would help tho.. ;-)
(My wife, not pregnant but loves the heated seats.. And preheating the car.. )

Good luck..

desiv

Oils4AsphaultOnly · Mar 24, 2017

ermackey said:
WetEV said:

Another vote for "just using the 120V charger supplied with the LEAF."

Click to expand...

Sorry I failed to address this option earlier. I would prefer to avoid this option, if possible, for the following reasons:
1. Wife is due to give birth in June. Using the 120v is not optimal for her and she is currently ill-tempered.
2. Juneau, AK is in a rainforest. Seriously. We have between 200 - 260 days of rain annually. Mean = 222 days; median = 255 days. Safety of plugging and unplugging is a concern as increased frequency = increased risk.
3. 120v would take up to 17 hours to fully charge car. While not frequent, a full charge is sometimes necessary.
4. At 220v, we could always "override" the cycle switch in a pinch or disable in winter when peak use is not as much of an issue because of heavy overall usage.
5. I would rather not have the conversation with my wife about why she can't use the $600 220v charger we bought and installed.
6. Did I mention she is pregnant and ill-tempered.

All of this being said, I have not closed the door on this option. I would just rather examine other alternatives before embarking on the 220v EV Charger turned into paperweight option.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

OP, you haven't mentioned how much daily driving you'd do? I'm in the "use the 120V charge" camp as I can't imagine the 15-min cycling being good for the relay inside the <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSECompare EVSE equipment</a>. But if you drive more than 40 miles each day, then the travel <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSECompare EVSE equipment</a> just won't charge your car enough.

But looking at your numbers: 2.5kw minimum, 5kw summer peak, and winter being MUCH higher, you might want to do 120V during the summer (only adds 1.2kw during the night), as the warmer weather will mean less charging wasted, and then switch to the 240v during the winter. Just not a big fan of the cycle-timer solution.

Click to expand...

I am sensing a theme.

I think the solution to the ill-tempered wife depends on where else you plan on using that 120v evse? If only at home, simply keep it plugged in and hang the j1772 connector end onto a holster when not in use. You only have to disconnect it if you want to use it elsewhere.

Otherwise, looking at it from a worst case scenario. If you don't have anything else running at night, the worst peak-rate will be for ~7kw (minus charging losses). Compare that with the 5kw that you'd normally see anyway, it's only a $20 difference between peak-rate charges.

Hope this helps!

ermackey · Mar 24, 2017

It isn't what I wanted to hear, but what I need to hear that matters.

I'll get over it.

Thanks for the feedback. I need to call my wife and ask her where she wants to eat and what movie she wants to see so we can have this conversation with minimal bloodshed.

BillHolz · Mar 24, 2017

So, a minimum 2.5KW/15 minutes means 10KW in an hour? If so, the Leaf at 6.6KW max is already below your minimum demand figures. Just keep all other large loads off during charging and you should not increase your demand charge.

Oils4AsphaultOnly · Mar 24, 2017

BillHolz said:
So, a minimum 2.5KW/15 minutes means 10KW in an hour? If so, the Leaf at 6.6KW max is already below your minimum demand figures. Just keep all other large loads off during charging and you should not increase your demand charge.

Not how it works. KW (Kilo-Watt) is a rate of power drawn. KWh (Kilo-Watt-hour) is an amount of power drawn - so 1kwh is providing 1KW of power continuously for one hour.

So 2.5KW / 15 minutes is still 2.5KW over whatever time period.

Edit. Or looked at another way, 1kwh can also provide 20 minutes of 1KW power, followed by 20 minutes of 0KW of power, followed by 20 minutes of 2KW of power. So the electricity bill shows how much electricity was consumed (in KWh), and also how much power was provided at the peak rate (in KW).

ermackey · Mar 24, 2017

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
BillHolz said:

So, a minimum 2.5KW/15 minutes means 10KW in an hour? If so, the Leaf at 6.6KW max is already below your minimum demand figures. Just keep all other large loads off during charging and you should not increase your demand charge.

Click to expand...

Not how it works. KW (Kilo-Watt) is a rate of power drawn. KWh (Kilo-Watt-hour) is an amount of power drawn - so 1kwh is providing 1KW of power continuously for one hour.

So 2.5KW / 15 minutes is still 2.5KW over whatever time period.

Edit. Or looked at another way, 1kwh can also provide 20 minutes of 1KW power, followed by 20 minutes of 0KW of power, followed by 20 minutes of 2KW of power. So the electricity bill shows how much electricity was consumed (in KWh), and also how much power was provided at the peak rate (in KW).

It is confusing. The form of peak use charge is not the norm. Most people are use to the peak time use (7am - 5pm, for example) when the cost/kwh is increased. Trying to explain it to people is tough.

sub3marathonman · Mar 24, 2017

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
BillHolz said:

So, a minimum 2.5KW/15 minutes means 10KW in an hour? If so, the Leaf at 6.6KW max is already below your minimum demand figures. Just keep all other large loads off during charging and you should not increase your demand charge.

Click to expand...

Not how it works. KW (Kilo-Watt) is a rate of power drawn. KWh (Kilo-Watt-hour) is an amount of power drawn - so 1kwh is providing 1KW of power continuously for one hour.

So 2.5KW / 15 minutes is still 2.5KW over whatever time period.

Edit. Or looked at another way, 1kwh can also provide 20 minutes of 1KW power, followed by 20 minutes of 0KW of power, followed by 20 minutes of 2KW of power. So the electricity bill shows how much electricity was consumed (in KWh), and also how much power was provided at the peak rate (in KW).

That is also not exactly how it works, although that is how most power companies state it.

The demand period is set. Where I'm at it is 30 minutes, where ermackey is in Alaska it is 15 minutes. Within the period is a group of intervals, I don't know if it is set at the meter manufacturer, or if it is just a general consensus, but each interval is 5 minutes. I have never heard of a different interval period, but there could be. Now, where it is interesting is that it really isn't that 1kwh of power for 1kw demand. It is the maximum instantaneous demand during that interval. So flip 10 100 watt bulbs on for 1 second, you're set at 1kw demand for that interval. You can continue to leave the bulbs on, and it won't affect your demand, only your usage. Flip those 10 100 watt bulbs on for 2 seconds, you're set at 1kw demand for that interval, OR, if you're unlucky enough, the intervals changed, and you're at 1 kw demand for two intervals. I did the calculations, to the extreme for dramatic effect, but I could generate $3000 worth of demand charges for $0.10 of actual electricity.

For ermackey, it is even worse being at 15 minutes, as each interval is thus 1/3 of the calculation, where my 30 minute calculation each interval is 1/6 of the calculation. So if those bulbs are flipped on for me, I've still got 5 more intervals to conserve, and reduce the demand. Which I will do with my battery backup system during my demand period, which is peak times for the electric company (6 a.m. to 10 a.m. now, in the summer 2 p.m. to 8 p.m. here in Florida) In Alaska, it is 24 hours per day you've got to be guarding your usage, which I find disingenuous. Even in Alaska, there must be peak and off-peak times for an electric company, and in off-peak times demand is meaningless, just as you've got the six-lane superhighway to yourself at 3 a.m.

It is also a bit onerous as the demand is a rolling calculation, incrementing every 5 minutes, instead of starting over every 15 minutes or 30 minutes. So he can't even leave the charger on for 10 minutes, from 1:10 a.m. to 1:20 a.m., which if it was set time-slots for the demand calculations could be done. Theoretically, even two seconds of usage could overlap into two of the three intervals.

alozzy · Mar 24, 2017

Is AELP your power company? I don't know if it helps, but they have an EV specific rate plan, according to their website :

https://www.aelp.com/Rates/ourrates.htm

I'm guessing that's the plan you are already on, but thought I'd mention it just in case.

SageBrush · Mar 24, 2017

sub3marathonman said:
As a final option, I'd strongly think about just using the 120V charger supplied with the LEAF. It is slightly inefficient, but I went for over a year, and many others use it exclusively. The only reason I did ultimately upgrade was because I was bothered by the inefficiency, but for a $10/kw peak demand charge, I'd live with inefficient.

this

ermackey · Mar 25, 2017

alozzy said:
Is AELP your power company? I don't know if it helps, but they have an EV specific rate plan, according to their website :

https://www.aelp.com/Rates/ourrates.htm

I'm guessing that's the plan you are already on, but thought I'd mention it just in case.

Yep. Already looked into it. But they will not allow two non-standard rates. Also, in my unique case, I do not have adequate access for a second meter for the ev rate. Living in an zero lot line home has limits.

jpadc · Mar 25, 2017

ermackey said:
Thanks for the reply. But as I am married and my wife will not be pleased with another $300-500 purchase of aother EV charger, is it safe to use a cycle charge or will it ruin the battery? Or is this just plain unknown.

Well, since no one else will deal with this issue, here is why I think you cannot do this. I have no idea what effect cycling the charge on and off every 15 minutes would have on the battery's long-term health, but I can assure you if you think a new adjustable EVSE is something you don't want to invest in, I can't imaging what a timing device of this type would cost. The timer is cheap, electrical contacts that would be able to handle 240 volt 30 amps cut-in and cut out arching 20-30 times per night...

The entire point of an EVSE is to avoid the arching of a 30 amp cut in and cut out. The button on the J1772 handle (the proximity sensor) sole function is to send a signal to the car to stop pulling a high amperage from the wall so that when you pull the handle out of the plug in the car you wont get arching at the contacts. Your timer would either have to unplug the entire EVSE or the cable leading to the car and either place the system would be drawing nearly 30 amps at the time of cut off. Thats going to cause some significant arching - every 15 minutes (less as the car's charge is near 100% - but still). There are industrial switches that do that stuff all the time, but they cost way more than the small cost of getting an adjustable EVSE (like Open EVSE) as you could use many of the parts from your current EVSE (like the J1772 cable) to keep that cost down.

So I see 3 options for you, the two that you have already been advised about by others 1) get a new adjustable EVSE and face the marital wrath 2) use the 120 volt cable that came with the car and face the marital wrath or 3) put a cot out by the car where you will "sleep" and every 15 minutes, pull out or insert the J1772 handle from the car. - Hey - you're the one who suggested you might need a new place to sleep if you went with option 1 or 2 so this just save you the cost of the new EVSE

5 Minute Cycle Timer to Charge Leaf - Is it safe?

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