edatoakrun
Posts: 4648
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Any other 6 year owners out there?

Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:35 pm

Six years and 52k miles passed a few weeks ago.

Very pleased overall, with my LEAF's performance.

Dependability is such (towed only once, for a sidewall torn by a collapsed pavement edge I carelessly hit) that I will probably still will have never used the extended warranty, when it expires next year.

TCO has been slightly higher than I expected, due to depreciation being a few k$ more than expected, but I'll probably get that (and more) all back, due to much lower than expected prices on new BEVs, when and if I replace my LEAF with another BEV in the future.

There's one major difference I've noticed between my experience and many others on this forum.

Seeing many of the comments and complaints of others, I have to conclude that relying on the innacurate LBC ("gid" meter) while driving a LEAF is an anxiety-inducing experience.

After more than six years, I've never run out of Wh, and never really suffered from "range anxiety" (charge-site anxiety yes, frequently) and largely credit my never relying on my LBC for its estimates of remaining energy capacity or battery capacity loss, for this experience.

Instead of relying on the LBC, I prefer to use only high-integrity data sources, primarily AVTA test results:

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2012-nissan-leaf

And parameters that can be measured accurately, kWh received from the grid, miles driven, and time.

Knowing the approximate nominal kWh available to LBW and VLB from my initial charge of "80%" or "100%", and watching the Nav screen m/kWh while I drive, I know both my nominal kWh used, and what are the approximate N kWh remaining wherever I drive, and can avoid all anxiety caused by the often "pessimistic" estimates from the LBC, of kWh remaining.

I also have a pretty good idea of what my LEAF's total and available battery capacity loss over time has been.

At six years and 52 k miles, my best estimates are:

My LEAF's pack had slightly under 19 kWh total capacity (as per AVTA test standards) and about 17 kWh available, when warm, at ~80 F.

That's about a 21% reduction from the 24 kWh Nissan specified, and ~18.5% lower than the average capacity Nissan actually delivered in 2012, according to AVTA testing of multiple LEAF packs.

My LEAF's range loss has been considerably lower than capacity loss since delivery.

At the relatively slow speeds (mostly mountain roads) I drive my own LEAF's efficiency gain reflects the high driving ranges relative to capacity shown in the AVTA 2012 LEAF 45 mph constant-speed tests, for the LEAFs with the less abused L2-charged packs.

I expect my LEAF's range loss per "100%" charge since delivery probably averaged close to 15% over the last year, higher in Winter and lower in Summer.

The ~32.5% Loss of capacity my LEAF's "pessimistic" LBC showed at six years and 52 k is really only of concern to me in how Nissan will consider this factor when I request (or demand) a replacement battery pack for my LEAF, which I'll probably be doing before Winter.
no condition is permanent

WAM
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:20 am
Delivery Date: 26 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2535
Location: San Jose

Re: Any other 6 year owners out there?

Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:37 pm

6 year owner here (delivery date of Leaf SL with Quick Charge #002535 May 26, 2011).
Mileage a LOW 24,000 (ICE car used for longer trips).
No problems or issues with the Leaf.
Original 12 volt battery.
One replacement tire (puncture too near sidewall to repair).
Other 3 tires original with one almost worn-out.
Maintenance=annual battery check, brake fluid flush/replace every 2 years, cabin filter replace every 3 years, tire rotation every 2 years.
Other than the HUGE depreciation, I'm happy with it.
If I had it to do over, I would have leased (even though I've NEVER leased a vehicle before).
Glad to have a 2011 with the TAN (they call it "gray") interior as I HATE black interiors!
Wish I had the heated seats and steering wheel, though.....

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12085
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Any other 6 year owners out there?

Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:53 am

mwalsh wrote:It does turn out I've got something else to kvetch about - paint fade, especially in the last 12-18 months. I had my rear spoiler repainted because the clear coat was going bad, and the paint shop (who are normally pretty good) complained that they couldn't get the paint to match. Now I don't know if they didn't really try or what, but you can clearly see that the spoiler matches pretty well to the door jambs, while the rest of the exterior paint has faded and yellowed quite a bit (it actually looks more distinctive than the picture is able to capture).

Image


that is pretty extreme. Have you tried the special waxes and rejuvenators, etc. ?

Is the fade uniform over the whole car? I guess if it was, you could pass it off as a different shade of blue... :)
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 24,261.3 miles.363 GIDAhr 80.66Hx95.95%kwh28.1QCs205,L2's 226
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
mwalsh
Posts: 9469
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 05 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0213
Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: Any other 6 year owners out there?

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:16 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:Is the fade uniform over the whole car? I guess if it was, you could pass it off as a different shade of blue... :)


Shade of blue? If it yellows anymore, I think it's eventually going to turn green! :mrgreen:
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 70,000 miles.
2015 pack under warranty 12/30/15.
Tinted windows.
Michelin MXV4 tires.
L1 EVSE upgrade.
FIAMM horns.
Superbright LED lighting.
2013 sun visors.
LED shifter.
Heated seats.
GT-R map lamp lenses.
AV L2 EVSE.

User avatar
Jefe
Gold Member
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:38 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Nov 2015
Leaf Number: 405983
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Any other 6 year owners out there?

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:23 am

mwalsh wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:Is the fade uniform over the whole car? I guess if it was, you could pass it off as a different shade of blue... :)


Shade of blue? If it yellows anymore, I think it's eventually going to turn green! :mrgreen:


Green is nice though. You might have other Leaf owners jealous wondering why they missed the green option when they bought theirs.
2013 SV + Premium Pkg. No QC.

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12085
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Any other 6 year owners out there?

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:35 am

Jefe wrote:
mwalsh wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:Is the fade uniform over the whole car? I guess if it was, you could pass it off as a different shade of blue... :)


Shade of blue? If it yellows anymore, I think it's eventually going to turn green! :mrgreen:


Green is nice though. You might have other Leaf owners jealous wondering why they missed the green option when they bought theirs.


I agree. There aren't many shades of Green I wouldn't jump all over if Nissan offered it
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 24,261.3 miles.363 GIDAhr 80.66Hx95.95%kwh28.1QCs205,L2's 226
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Valdemar
Posts: 2406
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Any other 6 year owners out there?

Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:50 am

Well, I'm glad I bought white then!
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

User avatar
mwalsh
Posts: 9469
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 05 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0213
Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: Any other 6 year owners out there?

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:29 am

Valdemar wrote:Well, I'm glad I bought white then!


You mean yellow? ;)
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 70,000 miles.
2015 pack under warranty 12/30/15.
Tinted windows.
Michelin MXV4 tires.
L1 EVSE upgrade.
FIAMM horns.
Superbright LED lighting.
2013 sun visors.
LED shifter.
Heated seats.
GT-R map lamp lenses.
AV L2 EVSE.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 5547
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Any other 6 year owners out there?

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:33 am

We are not quite six-year owners, but the car is now six years old, having been assembled in June of 2011. It was a demo vehicle until we purchased it in March 2012. It currently has about 44,000 miles on it.
edatoakrun wrote:I expect my LEAF's range loss per "100%" charge since delivery probably averaged close to 15% over the last year, higher in Winter and lower in Summer.
That matches our experience very closely. I managed a 100-mile trip exactly once in this car with some effort. Today, I could manage 85 or perhaps 90 miles this time of year. But wintertime range, which was lower to start with, has dropped by a larger factor due to a single cell-pair (37) which appears to have more resistance than the other cell pairs. This effect is only noticeable in colder weather during wintertime.

We make an annual excursion during Memorial Day week which is about 70 miles each way. When the car was new (and we had no meter), we would arrive home from this trip a bit below LBW, which was supposed to be about 17% capacity for a new LEAF. We made that trip home last Friday and arrived home at about 17.5% capacity remaining even though the meter shows the capacity to be 48.5Ah). Part of this is due to driving more efficiently, but that certainly does not make up for a 27% capacity loss. One thing which is significant about this return trip is that we only have L1 charging at the destination. That means the battery is both well-balanced AND more fully charged, as I describe in the paragraph below.

Frankly, most of the loss in capacity appears to be due to the inability of the LEAF's BMS to accommodate the voltage slip which occurs as the battery ages. Voltage slip is largely a function of the increasing resistance of the battery. By keeping the upper charging voltage at 4.1V per cell and the lower discharge limit at 3.5V per cell while the cells age, it is no longer possible to attain as high of a SOC as was possible when the car was new nor is it possible to achieve as low a discharge SOC (but the effect is more pronounced on the top end of the range). This effect is more pronounced in some cells than in others and also is more significant in the wintertime than in the summertime. You can see more details on page 14 of this presentation. Nissan could have greatly reduced the capacity fade seen by the BMS by accounting for this effect and loosening the voltage window as the resistance of the battery increases, similar to what Chevrolet did with the Volt. But, as far as I can tell, the cutoff voltages have not moved at all and the voltages seen during discharge quickly drop below 4.0V per cell even with a "full" charge. In the past, they would hold above 4.0V for quite a bit longer.

Our LEAF has been extremely reliable and low-maintenance. For a variety of reasons, I stopped paying for the annual battery check after the 24-month freebie. We have had the following expenses:

$275 - Replaced the windshield (a deer fell on it)
$5 - Plug a tire which got a screw in it
$7 - Front wiper blades (just replaced them this year)
$10 - Rear wiper blade (cheap substitute that doesn't work well -- need to invest in a high-dollar Nissan one)

I've also rotated the tires a few times and spent an inordinate amount of time babying the 12V battery.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 5547
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Any other 6 year owners out there?

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:35 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:I agree. There aren't many shades of Green I wouldn't jump all over if Nissan offered it
If they offered the ugly green which Toyota offered on the Prius a few years ago I'd run the other way. I've given a friend of mine no end of grief about that awful color! ;)
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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