LeftieBiker
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Re: Used Leaf Values rising?

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:59 pm

I think those economy figures are based on the larger "Imperial gallons," aren't they?
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

sirpurrcival
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Re: Used Leaf Values rising?

Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:58 pm

There is a dealership here in Vancouver that imports a large number of used Leafs on a regular basis. The last conversation I had with the sales rep., he told me that they were getting pricier because they were becoming harder to get. He wasn't trying to sell me because I had bought earlier so I take the information as factual albeit annecdotal. They also brought in a limited number of RAV4 EV's made for a brief 3 year period 2012-14. Those vehicles with about 30 to 50 thousand miles were prices well into the $30000.00 range. Even the lowest price S models from 2013 were going for $14000.00 plus (Cdn).

Lancpudn
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Re: Used Leaf Values rising?

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:36 am

LeftieBiker wrote:I think those economy figures are based on the larger "Imperial gallons," aren't they?


They are indeed Imperial measurements. :)

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IssacZachary
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Re: Used Leaf Values rising?

Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:39 am

Lancpudn wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:I think those economy figures are based on the larger "Imperial gallons," aren't they?


They are indeed Imperial measurements. :)

That's still 70 to 80mpg in non-electric, non-hybrid vehicles.

Now, how I see this all applies to the title of this post is that sadly Americans aren't ready for economic fuel or electric sipping cars. Fuel is too cheap and we Americans make too much money.

This is part of what drives the price down on used Leafs. Why get a Leaf that's going to cost $15 per month in electricity when you can get a Prius that's only going to cost $30 to $40 per month in fuel? And why get a Prius that costs $30 to $40 per month in fuel if I have the money for a Hummer that's going to cost me $200 to $300 per month in fuel?

Now if you're from a country where it's hard to make $20 per hour and fuel is going to cost you three times what it does in the United States then buying a Hummer doesn't make all that much sense.
2013 SL SOLD :cry:
2013 Toyota Avalon Hybrid CURRENT

cwerdna
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Re: Used Leaf Values rising?

Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:38 am

Lancpudn wrote:1. Peugeot 208 1.6 BlueHDi - 94.2mpg
...

IssacZachary wrote:
Lancpudn wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:I think those economy figures are based on the larger "Imperial gallons," aren't they?


They are indeed Imperial measurements. :)

That's still 70 to 80mpg in non-electric, non-hybrid vehicles.

Not only are they in larger Imperial gallons, they're on WAY inflated European vs. the US mileage tests.

I found the above "94.2 mpg" vehicle at http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/search ... ?vid=36313. You may need to visit the URL twice or just look it up at http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/. That vehicle receives:
"67.3" on Imperial Urban (cold)
"94.2" on Imperial Extra Urban
"80.7 "on Imperial Combined (weighted)

For comparison, if you look up the MY2016 Prius, several versions (e.g. TOYOTA Prius Active 1.8 with 15'' wheels, E-CVT), receive these numbers:
97.4
91.1
94.1

So, the Gen 4 Prius (2016+ model year non-plugin) is a "97.4 mpg" car and a "94.1 mpg" combined car, much better than "80.7".

Here's what the Gen 4 Prius gets in US EPA tests: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do? ... 3&id=37164 52 mpg combined for most trims and 56 mpg combined for the Eco version.

In http://www.caranddriver.com/features/th ... -estimates that I pointed to from https://priuschat.com/threads/car-and-d ... tes.67235/, page 3 says
One last fuel-economy tidbit: Don’t even think of comparing EPA figures with stand­ardized fuel-economy tests from other countries because the test cycles are very different. For example, the European highway rating, called “extra urban,” is higher than the EPA’s by about 30 percent, so a rating on that cycle of, say, 60 mpg, would be closer to 40 in this country. The mainstream press, not realizing the difference, often complains that automakers refuse to bring efficient models here when, in fact, they may not be all that efficient when measured by U.S. standards.

And a few years ago, the EPA test was changed slightly yet again. The previous time was with model year 2008.

Almost none of vehicles Lancpudn listed exist in the US and some of those automakers don't sell in the US. I suspect many/most of those diesels wouldn't be 50 state legal in terms of emissions and wouldn't be accepted in the US market for a # of reasons (small size, modest power, etc.)

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
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Re: Used Leaf Values rising?

Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:41 am

IssacZachary wrote:I was wondering where all the super fuel efficient cars were. Here in the USA everyone I talk to still thinks 30mpg is great fuel mileage. If they get 20 they're happy. But I used to get as much as 60mpg in my ol' 1985 VW. I thought that surely technology has advanced enough to get better fuel mileage than that. But when comparing fuel mileage records with Prius owner's I usually got substantially better fuel mileage driving that ol' piece of junk than they did. And how does burning more fuel lower emissions levels?

There are two parts to emissions:
- CO2 (a greenhouse gas) emissions: burning a gallon of gasoline produces 19.4 lbs of CO2, for diesel, it's 22.2 lbs: http://web.archive.org/web/201104270443 ... f05001.htm. Only way to reduce this is to burn less of it or to burn something w/lower carbon content or have a source that results in less or no CO2 emissions.

- pollutants/air toxics (EPA didn't even consider CO2 to be a pollutant until a few years ago): this has no direct relationship to how much fuel is burned: http://epa.ohio.gov/dapc/echeck/whyecheck/healthef.aspx and https://www.epa.gov/mobile-source-pollu ... our-health. I can find better sources and write more maybe in a day. No time now.

Take a look at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do? ... 8553&#tab2 and under Energy and Environment, select California for state of purchase. Notice the 39 mpg combined 3-cylinder Mirage only receives a 7/10 EPA smog rating, while the 19 mpg combined 3.0L 6-cylinder supercharged Land Rover receives a 9/10 and the dirty 37 mpg Cruze Diesel only receives 6/10?

Please read http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacarhelp.shtml then see https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/smog-rating. Look at tables like at https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/feder ... pollutants. Notice the limits in terms of max allows grams per mile for NOx + NMOG, CO, PM and HCHO?

You can find vehicles by smog rating (higher = better) at https://www.driveclean.ca.gov/Search_an ... Rating.php.

Hope someone else can chime in about lean-burn engines --> high NOx --> poor emissions performance.

BTW, executive summary at https://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/trends-report may help. Trend has been towards heavier cars w/more horsepower, which helps to negate efficiency gains.

Will write more later.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

rmay635703
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Re: Used Leaf Values rising?

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:44 am

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik ... olumn.html

Lean burn cars like the original Honda Insight emitted some of the lowest levels of NOx for it's time.

Anyway I have always felt the pollution metric for a ICE car should include "supply side" pollution just as an EV is compared using only supply side pollution.
For gasoline produced in a modern refinery its roughly
10lbs of CO2 to transport and refine each gallon
And about 96-300 grams of NOx per gallon refined
VOC is off the charts, couldn't find a reliable metric

Diesel is about
6lbs of CO2 refined per gallon
And about 20-40 grams of NOx to refine
VOC is lower for diesel production but again hard to quantify

You also emit, lead, mercury, cadmium and other goodies during the production process and pollute water.

The above should be included in all car pollution metrics so the nonsense incomplete pollution metric is put to an end and we can focus on reducing petroleum use over worrying about car tailpipe emissions (which aren't the primary source of pollution, the refinery is)

MPM
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Re: Used Leaf Values rising?

Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:20 am

We're all going a bit off topic here but cwerdna is completely correct, the European test cycle is wildly optimistic.

On http://www.spritmonitor.de I can find 15 users that report the actual fuel use of their Peugeot 208 'diesel with AdBlue', and they average 4.43 l/100km. I believe that corresponds with 53mpg (US). As cwerna also found, that puts it in the same ballpark as a Prius.

But diesel holds more energy per gallon than gasoline plus the Peugeot is a smaller car so I'm not impressed.

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IssacZachary
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Re: Used Leaf Values rising?

Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:07 pm

rmay635703 wrote:Lean burn cars like the original Honda Insight emitted some of the lowest levels of NOx for it's time

And so did diesel engines when they first came out.

And thanks Cwerdna for the info! It's all very true. I had forgotten about how far off from reality the European figures are.

When I drove my diesel car I did keep it as tuned as possible. For an example, for the higher elevation I had the max injection turned back in order to compensate for the thinner air and lower the particulate, CO and HC emissions. And keeping it in good mechanical shape probably is what helped me get 55mpg average. Not bad for a car that had only cost me $600.

Sadly with any ICE there doesn't seem to be any win-win situation. Leaner, more advanced timing and higher compression ratios all equate to better efficiency and lower CO, HC, VOC and particulate emissions, but also more NOx emissions. Gaseous fuels such as propane, methane and gasoline all work better at making a much more homogenous air/fuel mixture whereas diesel creates both rich and lean conditions in the same combustion chamber. But even then there really isn't a fuel that can be completely homogenized in intermittent pulses of air several hundred times per second.

And the better emissions a car gets, the more expensive it is too. Talking about the Mitsubishi Mirage, there were some 2015 models on clearance sale for less than $10,000 in the first part of 2016. But interestingly one of the reasons I opted for the Leaf instead of a brand new Mirage was that according to some TCO calculators a used Leaf was slightly cheaper in the long run than any Mirage, new or used. Sadly, the TCO calculators paint used Prii as costing as much as $2,000 more per year than a used Leaf or a new or used Mirage. At that rate I could have just kept my Chevy Astro, that was costing me $200 per month in fuel to operate for the few months I had it.

But all in all the Leaf just seems to me to be the best answer to everything except long trips. My TCO calculation from Edmunds was around $20,000 for five years for my 2013 Leaf, and at the rate I'm going it's going to be a lot cheaper than that. Back then, that was a lot cheaper than Edmunds TCO calculation of $30,000 for five years for a Prius of the same year. The Leaf doesn't spew out black smoke like my Diesel Golf did. It is also the safest car I've ever owned, much safer than my first car, a 1951 Plymouth Cranbrook, as well as my last car, a 2001 Chevy Astro.

If I could figure out how to be able rely solely on the Leaf I'll sell off my two VW's I still own. I'm not quite at the point where I can afford something more expensive than the Leaf. So that places me at a point where I have to draw a line somewhere. Basically if I sell my Leaf I'd have to get a car that's worth exactly what my Leaf costs, no more. I'm not going to be able to get a Prius for that, unless it's a first generation sedan. Maybe some day the value of my Leaf will rise and I'll be able to sell it and buy a PHEV Prius.
cwerdna wrote:- pollutants/air toxics (EPA didn't even consider CO2 to be a pollutant until a few years ago): this has no direct relationship to how much fuel is burned:

This is why I've contemplated making a steam powered range extender for my Leaf. Some of the steam cars back in the 20's got emissions levels that would meet modern day CARB standards (i.e. Doble Steamer). Although I wouldn't expect to get more than 15mpg (which is what the 6,000lb Doble got).
2013 SL SOLD :cry:
2013 Toyota Avalon Hybrid CURRENT

rmay635703
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Re: Used Leaf Values rising?

Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:32 pm

IssacZachary wrote:
rmay635703 wrote:Lean burn cars like the original Honda Insight emitted some of the lowest levels of NOx for it's time

And so did diesel engines when they first came out.

Sadly with any ICE there doesn't seem to be any win-win situation. Leaner, more advanced timing and higher compression ratios all equate to better efficiency and lower CO, HC, VOC and particulate emissions, but also more NOx emissions. ).


If the refinery makes 10x more emissions per gallon than your car are you really creating more pollution by saving fuel?

Further is it fair to compare the EV pollution score to ICE Vs if we don't account for the massive refinery pollution unique to the ICE V?

I think cars are optimized in terms of pollution controls and we need to drive upstream polluters to the task.

Further the only way to reduce the overall pollution from an ICEV is to reduce petroleum use.
The refinery always puts out an order of magnitude more pollution than the cars burning the stuff.

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