PianoAl
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The Future of Public L2 Chargers

Sat May 06, 2017 9:10 am

I've wondered whether the growth of public L2 chargers will be fast enough to handle the growth in EVs.

But, check my logic here:

L2 chargers are used by car owners like me who drive just far enough in a day trip that they can't get home without a charge.

They are rarely used by people on a long trip (those people will use an L3 charger)

If, in a few years, most EVs will have ranges of over 200 miles, those higher-range EV owners will rarely use a public L2 charger.

Therefore, fewer public L2 chargers will be added by government and companies.

Make sense?
2016 Nissan LEAF Model S, Purchased May 2016

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TonyWilliams
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Re: The Future of Public L2 Chargers

Sat May 06, 2017 1:15 pm

Why would anybody driving around WANT to charge at slow chargers if given the option of fast charging?

The whole concept of plug-in hybrids always has the option of burning gasoline. The only exception so far is the Mitsubishi Outlander plug-in hybrid, which has CHAdeMO DC fast charging.

Slow AC powered charging is great for places where people linger, not for "I need a charge now" type traveling:

1) hotels
2) shopping malls
3) airports
4) curbside parking (parking meter and place to plug-in)
5) at your house / apartment / condo / flat

Of course, the option of a D.C. fast charger should also be at all those places.

The use of slow and fast charging have different goals. Slow charging is cheap to install, and therefore will be around a LONG time.

DC fast charging is VERY expensive to install, and therefore will require real planning and business case.

Both will be around a long time.

Scaramanga
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Re: The Future of Public L2 Chargers

Sun May 07, 2017 7:17 pm

[quote=]

Both will be around a long time.[/quote]

I agree. I will QC as a novelty or if I'm in a hurry to get someplace, but I prefer L2 charging in my own garage and out in town as a secondary option if I need a few miles topped up while I grab a cup of coffee. The expense and level of infrastructure required to install QC chargers is not something that the majority of businesses wanting to do the right thing and provide charging are going to take the plunge on.

I think there will be a mix for a while but, the Chevy Bolt is throwing a wrench in things in my view. They can use the same L2 infrastructure we do, but Nissan & GM have split the DCQC infrastructure. I've only seen one QC that had both Chademo & CCS, I'm not sure how widespread it is to have both.
2016 SL Premium - Gunmetal Grey, built 2/2016
2014 S w/ QC - Cayenne Red, built 1/2014
EVSE: ChargePoint 25 32A Plug-In w/ 18' Cord
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IssacZachary
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Re: The Future of Public L2 Chargers

Sun May 07, 2017 7:56 pm

The longest trip I did so far was 379.6 miles. The only charging stations along the way were L2. One was down and I almost didn't make it to the next one. Two legs of the trip were about 70 miles between chargers too. It would be great if there were a CHAdeMO at every gasoline station (or in every town with a gasoline station). But I'd be happy if there were just L2 stations in those places.
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
Other vehicles: 1972 VW Super Beetle 1600cc dual port engine. 1985 VW Golf non-turbo 1.6L diesel.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: The Future of Public L2 Chargers

Sun May 07, 2017 9:02 pm

Scaramanga wrote:I will QC as a novelty or if I'm in a hurry to get someplace


You do recognize that your "novelty" is other people's necessity? I'm currently driving 500 miles from San Diego to San Francisco in one of my 125 mile range EVs. I wouldn't waste 2 minutes at an J1772 charge station, unless I was sleeping in a comfortable hotel bed.

To be honest, I'm looking forward to the day when I consider 50kW chargers too slow to monkey with.

I think the 120kW Tesla Superchargers are tolerable. The mass market probably wants / needs faster.


I think there will be a mix for a while but, the Chevy Bolt is throwing a wrench in things in my view. They can use the same L2 infrastructure we do, but Nissan & GM have split the DCQC infrastructure. I've only seen one QC that had both Chademo & CCS, I'm not sure how widespread it is to have both.



The overwhelming majority of new public DC fast chargers have both plugs. It's not an issue anymore than gasoline and diesel at the same pump is an issue.

I have been driving a 240 mile EV for 65,000 and two years. I rely on DC fast charging even more than with an 80 mile range LEAF, since it would be rare to want to take such a car on a long journey.

240 miles is not throwing any wrenches in anything.

Scaramanga
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Re: The Future of Public L2 Chargers

Mon May 08, 2017 5:57 am

TonyWilliams wrote:
You do recognize that your "novelty" is other people's necessity?


Absolutely. We drive / commute very different ways, just like ICE car owners, and that's fine. I find DCQC a convenience and hardly use them unless I've forgotten to sufficiently L2 charge in my garage. I think there's room in the EV world for both of us, and to some degree when early adopters realize 2nd wave drivers like me aren't necessarily a threat to their charging needs, this charger debate will wane, and all manner of charging will be plentiful, but I'd rather not see Public L2 charging vanish, or even greatly diminish.
2016 SL Premium - Gunmetal Grey, built 2/2016
2014 S w/ QC - Cayenne Red, built 1/2014
EVSE: ChargePoint 25 32A Plug-In w/ 18' Cord
ELM 327 / LeafSpy Pro
'06 Sentra Compact Spare / Jack
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LeftieBiker
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Re: The Future of Public L2 Chargers

Mon May 08, 2017 10:29 am

You do recognize that your "novelty" is other people's necessity?


By the same token many people rely on L-2 stations to extend their range enough to compensate for a degraded battery pack or to drive a little farther than the car's actual range. I regularly do this in Winter, shopping for 20-30 minutes while I pick up an extra 10-15% charge that gets me home with no worries.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

Dooglas
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Re: The Future of Public L2 Chargers

Mon May 08, 2017 11:13 am

TonyWilliams wrote:Slow AC powered charging is great for places where people linger, not for "I need a charge now" type traveling:

1) hotels
2) shopping malls
3) airports
4) curbside parking (parking meter and place to plug-in)
5) at your house / apartment / condo / flat


You left out "where people work". Seems like there will be a demand for L2 charging at offices, factories, and other commercial centers for quite some time. The charging rate and infrastructure cost of L2 makes it particularly suitable for home and office.
2013 Leaf SV - lease ended, 2016 Leaf S30

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IssacZachary
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Re: The Future of Public L2 Chargers

Mon May 08, 2017 4:25 pm

PianoAl wrote:I've wondered whether the growth of public L2 chargers will be fast enough to handle the growth in EVs.

But, check my logic here:

L2 chargers are used by car owners like me who drive just far enough in a day trip that they can't get home without a charge.

They are rarely used by people on a long trip (those people will use an L3 charger)

If, in a few years, most EVs will have ranges of over 200 miles, those higher-range EV owners will rarely use a public L2 charger.

Therefore, fewer public L2 chargers will be added by government and companies.

Make sense?

It makes perfect sense. I think it can be summed up in that our first generation affordable EV's are becoming obsolete.

At least that's the way it is in my situation. I'd love to use my Leaf as my only car. With an adequate charging infrastructure that could be done. But...
  • Like you said, on long trips it would be best to go from DCQC station to DCQC station.
    • Sadly where I live there are no DCQC stations anywhere nearby. My last 380 mile trip I did I had to do it off of both L2 and L1 charging the whole way!
  • Sure, when I make it to the nearest Super WalMart or Target or Home Depot 70 miles away I wouldn't mind L2 charging while I shop.
    • But what about from here to there? As it is now I have to creep along at 40mph and still get there with only 5% left! With the next generation of EV's not needing to charge after so few miles nobody's going to put a L2 charging station between here and there along a barren road just for me.
  • Where I live I've never gone to a charging station and had to wait for other EV's. They're always empty!
    • But for the same reason it seems that L2 charging station owner's aren't seeing the benefit. On my 380 mile trip I almost didn't make it do to a charging station that was down out in the middle of nowhere. It looks like it hadn't been used in months! Once the next generation EV's are all over these kinds of Charging stations aren't going to get the use they should to make them feasible.
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
Other vehicles: 1972 VW Super Beetle 1600cc dual port engine. 1985 VW Golf non-turbo 1.6L diesel.

Scaramanga
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Re: The Future of Public L2 Chargers

Mon May 08, 2017 4:56 pm

IssacZachary wrote:Sadly where I live there are no DCQC stations anywhere nearby.


What part of then world do you live in & do you think that DCQC will remain an urban phenomenon?
2016 SL Premium - Gunmetal Grey, built 2/2016
2014 S w/ QC - Cayenne Red, built 1/2014
EVSE: ChargePoint 25 32A Plug-In w/ 18' Cord
ELM 327 / LeafSpy Pro
'06 Sentra Compact Spare / Jack
Renault Tow Hook

2016 Murano SL AWD
VW / Audi / Volvo ex-aficionado

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