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IssacZachary
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Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Tue May 30, 2017 10:34 am

webb14leafs wrote:If you build it they will come!!!

I see this in several ways.

  1. Ok, so one generous and rich fellow could go putting in charity DCQC stations all over. Last I checked my bank account didn't agree that that fellow were I.
  2. If you get EV owners to throw in their share... But there would be some growing pains with that unless you do it like Tesla and fit that into the car price. But that still would make problems as EV's would still start out as more expensive in the beginning.
  3. A rich fellow could invest in some DCQC stations in exchange for charging for the electricity or attracting customers to a business. But how long until you pay off a CHAdeMO station using money from paying EV customers?

Maybe a guy could start out small and slowly grow big. I could offer to install for free some level 2 charging stations at business in certain locations and then offer to pay the electric bill in turn for charging for the electricity and keeping the extra money. With the extra I could slowly save up to install more level 2 stations and eventually DCQC stations. The problem is that we need those stations now. If I get a loan to build them there's no guarantee that I'll be able to make enough to pay the loan off. But if I buy a Bolt (which I personally wouldn't do) then I can pay off the loan knowing what I'm getting into.
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

jamieo
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:01 am
Delivery Date: 21 Feb 2015
Leaf Number: 330288
Location: Memphis Area, West Tennessee

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Tue May 30, 2017 10:47 am

webb14leafs wrote:Just a philosophical question?

Do you think that selling a car with 200+ mile range is really worth it? By that, I mean, does it provide much more utility than a car with a 100 mile range, given that there is still insufficient charging infrastructure in 90% of the US?

I recently purchased a 2014 Nissan Leaf S. I wanted to wait and get a 2018 when it came out because I "believed" I needed the extra range. My old car didn't comply with my plan, so I took the plunge. I would estimate that my current leaf provides 90% of the utility of an ICE car (For me and my family anyway). An EV with more range might push that a couple percent, but it's still not a viable means of interstate transportation since you would have to stop every 2.5-3 hours to charge it for 90 minutes or more.

Thoughts?


I go back and forth about it... my 2014 gives me enough range now for my normal daily driving, but a 200+ mile car would allow me to not need to rent a car for the occasional long-distance trip.

gshepherd
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Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Tue May 30, 2017 11:54 am

I have a friend who used to say EVs needed to do at least 300, or even 500 miles on a charge before he'd ever consider one. Now he's driving a 2011 LEAF with degraded battery, worth about 50 miles range, and raves about it to anyone who will listen. It is the primary car with a ICE as a second car for longer trips.

My 2016 is good for 100 miles, sometimes more. Most days I use about 20% of the pack, if that. Occasionally I push the range on a 80-90 mile drive and don' t need to charge midway. Beyond that I make use of CHAdeMO around the area, or sometimes destination L2 charging if available and I don't need to quick charge.

It's on the 80-90 mile trips that I wouldn't mind a 150-mile range or better. It would make it so I don't have care so much when driving between major cities in my area. That's probably it in a nutshell: can you comfortably drive to the next major city and back without worrying you'll have sufficient charge? That will depend on your regional situation and how spread out things are.

Another concern I've run into with the local CHAdeMO infrastructure is broken / offline units. This is especially troublesome as there is typically only one charger per location, so if it's offline or vandalized... you're on your own for plan B.

As to The Great American Road Trip... hard to beat an efficient ICEV for that. Sometimes you can get amazing deals on full size rentals with unlimited mileage, and dollars to donuts that makes a lot of sense.

I'd love to see the rental companies start offering more of a membership structure where you can quickly book online (perhaps using an app), drop your EV off, swipe your card at the gate, and pick up your rental for the day/weekend/week with no paperwork or pressure.
2016 LEAF SV

webb14leafs
Posts: 72
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Delivery Date: 27 Mar 2017

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Tue May 30, 2017 12:26 pm

gshepherd wrote:
As to The Great American Road Trip... hard to beat an efficient ICEV for that. Sometimes you can get amazing deals on full size rentals with unlimited mileage, and dollars to donuts that makes a lot of sense.



No doubt!!

I'm renting a car for a road trip that will cover about 1500 miles round trip. Cost is $166 for the week, and will include around $140 in fuel costs (if that). That comes to right around $0.20 per mile. Same calc for the depreciation of even just a reasonable used car + gas would exceed that.

johnlocke
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Leaf Number: 300582

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Tue May 30, 2017 3:36 pm

The real problem is not what size the battery needs to be but rather how long will the battery last! If you could guarantee the the battery capacity for the life of the car, then you could just buy the size that suits your needs. But the reality of it is that the Nissan battery degrades with age and a 30 KWH mi battery is going to be good for maybe 40-50 miles after 5-6 years. You need to buy a 60 KWH battery if you want a 100 mi range in 5-6 years. ICE vehicles don't have this problem, their gas tanks never get smaller and gas milage declines only slightly as they age. Tesla seems to do much better with their batteries. Tesla may have a better technology or battery cooling solution but Nissan batteries have a lousy track record and capacity loss is a fact of life. I can live with a 30 KWH battery but not a 20 KWH. As far as the added weight of a larger battery goes, it wouldn't be much different than adding a couple of passengers.

Sure, I'd like a bigger battery. If nothing else, It would mean having to charge less often. The increased range would be more of a security blanket than anything else. But there are days that I do drive more than 100 miles and not having to plan where to charge would simplify things. Plus, I'm on PV at home so charging at the house is more environmentally friendly and cheaper too. I keep a car for 8-10 years on average and put a lot of miles on it (20K+/yr) so I'm not the average Joe. I was promised a battery that would last the life of the car ( Nissan promised typically 80% capacity at 8 years or 100,000 mi) but what I got is considerably less.

A 200 mile range is more than adequate. In the 70's cars had 20 gal gas tanks but only got 10-11 mi/gal. Most cars still have 20 gal gas tanks but now get 25-30 mi/gal. Most people don't drive for than 2-3 hours at a time anyway. If you could charge the battery in 10-15 min and be on your way, that would be a game changer. 30 minutes isn't bad but if you could drop the charging time to about what it takes to get gas and a snack while on the interstate that would be great. Superchargers ought to be less than 50 miles apart on the interstate and there should be to enough stalls to accommodate the expected traffic without a wait. The faster you can charge, the fewer stalls you would need. Chargers in the city would be more problematic since most people will charge at home and there's a lot less need for public charging. It won't be like gas stations on every block. Major urban centers like malls, public buildings, and garages could have chargers as well as motels and hotels.

The real question is can anyone other than Tesla build a decent battery that will last the life of the car?
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

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IssacZachary
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Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Tue May 30, 2017 4:27 pm

webb14leafs wrote:
gshepherd wrote:
As to The Great American Road Trip... hard to beat an efficient ICEV for that. Sometimes you can get amazing deals on full size rentals with unlimited mileage, and dollars to donuts that makes a lot of sense.



No doubt!!

I'm renting a car for a road trip that will cover about 1500 miles round trip. Cost is $166 for the week, and will include around $140 in fuel costs (if that). That comes to right around $0.20 per mile. Same calc for the depreciation of even just a reasonable used car + gas would exceed that.

I rented once so far since I got my Leaf in November. Then the town's only rental company decided to only open 5 days a week, Tuesday through Saturday, and only to noon. I wanted to go to Ouray yesterday. But I would have had to pick up the rental on Saturday and have dropped it off on Tuesday just for using it for 12 hours or less. I'd drive to Ouray in the Leaf but last I checked there's no charging station of any kind anywhere near there except a couple 120V campgrounds.
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
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The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

GlennD
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Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Tue May 30, 2017 7:05 pm

VW is coming out with a higher range eGolf. My current car fills my needs. If I had the longer range car it would simply mean I charged more infrequently. Retired, I really do not need more range. My car was leased 9/20/16 and it has less than 4000 miles. The longest I go to is the TRW swap meet at 39 miles one way. I usually have a quarter charge when I get home.

A longer range car means nothing to me. The VW has CCS rapid charging and most new EVSE's are dual mode but L2 in my garage is currently enough for me. If I had to go some where longer range like San Diego than I would exercise the CCS rapid charge.
2012 Cayenne Red SL traded for:
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Traded for a Cirrus White 2014 Mercedes B (totaled)
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Tue May 30, 2017 9:07 pm

My situation is similar, but I do often travel 70 miles in Winter, and occasionally 100 miles in Summer - or I would, anyway, if I had the available range. I think a lot of people balk at a car that fits 90% of their driving needs nicely, but can't do the other 10%.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

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IssacZachary
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Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Tue May 30, 2017 10:02 pm

What if everyone on this forum site that's contemplating on trading in their less-than-$10,000-worth Nissan Leaf for a $40,000 +200 mile EV just donated the $30,000 dollars to fund DCQC stations?
:mrgreen:
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1500
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Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Wed May 31, 2017 5:01 am

IssacZachary wrote:What if everyone on this forum site that's contemplating on trading in their less-than-$10,000-worth Nissan Leaf for a $40,000 +200 mile EV just donated the $30,000 dollars to fund DCQC stations?
:mrgreen:


If I did that, I would still have an ugly, mediocre-to-drive, 50-mile EV without a DCQC port.

For me, my Leaf covers maybe 90% of my trips, but less than 50% of my miles. I have a short commute, and live in a county that is roughly a square, 30 miles on edge. The Leaf handles my day-to-day very well. But I leave town almost every other weekend, and travel 250-300 miles each way. A 200 mile range, with a single QC pitstop is all I need. Adding 30 minutes of charging to a trip that already takes 4-5 hours is hardly an inconvenience - it takes that long to get the kids out of the car, use the rest room, and get back in and buckled up. Currently I just take the PHEV, but I'd really like to kick the gas habit completely.

And I agree that both cars don't need to handle these trips. So a 200-mile BEV would be a perfect complement to my 50-mile BEV. I think there is room in my driveway (and budget) for one of each. If Nissan were to offer 30kWh and 60kWh batteries in a nicer looking car that was actually fun to drive, then I could imagine having two Leafs.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

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