webb14leafs
Posts: 146
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Delivery Date: 27 Mar 2017

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Wed May 31, 2017 6:41 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
Adding 30 minutes of charging to a trip that already takes 4-5 hours is hardly an inconvenience



This illustrates my point pretty well.

With current EV CHADEMO chargers (~50kW charge rate) it would take about an hour and 20 minutes to charge a 60 kWhr battery. Not 30 minutes.

I think that for most people this would be too much of an inconvenience, and that the focus should be to deploy 150kW chargers so that you COULD charge your 60kWhr battery in about 20 minutes.

webb14leafs
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:43 am
Delivery Date: 27 Mar 2017

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Wed May 31, 2017 6:44 am

GlennD wrote:VW is coming out with a higher range eGolf. My current car fills my needs. If I had the longer range car it would simply mean I charged more infrequently. Retired, I really do not need more range. My car was leased 9/20/16 and it has less than 4000 miles. The longest I go to is the TRW swap meet at 39 miles one way. I usually have a quarter charge when I get home.

A longer range car means nothing to me. The VW has CCS rapid charging and most new EVSE's are dual mode but L2 in my garage is currently enough for me. If I had to go some where longer range like San Diego than I would exercise the CCS rapid charge.


I'm surprised the eGolf doesn't get more publicity. Probably because it hasn't rolled out to all 50 states yet. The 2017 will have a 120+ mile range and is cheaper than the current leaf. I think it would sell really well if it got similar discounts.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1687
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Wed May 31, 2017 6:50 am

webb14leafs wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:
Adding 30 minutes of charging to a trip that already takes 4-5 hours is hardly an inconvenience



This illustrates my point pretty well.

With current EV CHADEMO chargers (~50kW charge rate) it would take about an hour and 20 minutes to charge a 60 kWhr battery. Not 30 minutes.

I think that for most people this would be too much of an inconvenience, and that the focus should be to deploy 150kW chargers so that you COULD charge your 60kWhr battery in about 20 minutes.


Depends on the trip. You are assuming I need a full charge, which simply isn't true.

Notice that I'm talking about a 250-300 mile trip. Also implied is 1) I start with a full charge and 2) I can charge at my destination.

50kW will add 25kWh in 30 minutes. With losses, etc, let's say that you get 3 miles/kWh. That means I add 75 miles in 30 minutes.

200 miles (initial charge) + 75 miles (30m pit stop) = 275 miles.

So for my 250 mile trip, that leaves me a safety buffer.

For the 300 mile trip, I would need to stop for more like 45 minutes. Certainly less convenient, but split into two stops (again, I have kids, so I make more than two stop anyway), this is nothing.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

GetOffYourGas
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Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Wed May 31, 2017 6:54 am

webb14leafs wrote:I'm surprised the eGolf doesn't get more publicity. Probably because it hasn't rolled out to all 50 states yet. The 2017 will have a 120+ mile range and is cheaper than the current leaf. I think it would sell really well if it got similar discounts.


The eGolf is cheaper by MSRP, but more expensive due to fewer discounts. In the end, it is several thousand dollars more than a comparably equipped Leaf.

Similarly, the Focus EV looks great on paper. Compared to the Leaf, it has longer range, more powerful motor, and comes fully loaded for less than $20k. But due to availability and lack of discounts (not to mention the lack of a trunk), its sales are pitiful.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

webb14leafs
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:43 am
Delivery Date: 27 Mar 2017

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Wed May 31, 2017 6:58 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
webb14leafs wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:
Adding 30 minutes of charging to a trip that already takes 4-5 hours is hardly an inconvenience



This illustrates my point pretty well.

With current EV CHADEMO chargers (~50kW charge rate) it would take about an hour and 20 minutes to charge a 60 kWhr battery. Not 30 minutes.

I think that for most people this would be too much of an inconvenience, and that the focus should be to deploy 150kW chargers so that you COULD charge your 60kWhr battery in about 20 minutes.


Depends on the trip. You are assuming I need a full charge, which simply isn't true.

Notice that I'm talking about a 250-300 mile trip. Also implied is 1) I start with a full charge and 2) I can charge at my destination.

50kW will add 25kWh in 30 minutes. With losses, etc, let's say that you get 3 miles/kWh. That means I add 75 miles in 30 minutes.

200 miles (initial charge) + 75 miles (30m pit stop) = 275 miles.

So for my 250 mile trip, that leaves me a safety buffer.

For the 300 mile trip, I would need to stop for more like 45 minutes. Certainly less convenient, but split into two stops (again, I have kids, so I make more than two stop anyway), this is nothing.


Agreed, but I think that when most people consider buying a new EV for the first time they think in terms of "HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE ME TO COMPLETELY CHARGE IT."

Your driving habits are exactly what I'm talking about though. Mostly general commuting with occasional, but consistent longer trips. Now that you own an EV you're more comfortable with the idea of it, but the issue is getting the masses to jump into the market.

GetOffYourGas
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Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Wed May 31, 2017 7:15 am

webb14leafs wrote:Agreed, but I think that when most people consider buying a new EV for the first time they think in terms of "HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE ME TO COMPLETELY CHARGE IT."

Your driving habits are exactly what I'm talking about though. Mostly general commuting with occasional, but consistent longer trips. Now that you own an EV you're more comfortable with the idea of it, but the issue is getting the masses to jump into the market.


I'm with you now. IMO, that perception is a huge problem. I really don't need to make the whole trip in one shot, nor do I need to fully charge in 15 minutes. But, like you said, most people who are new to EVs don't appreciate that.

So what we need to do is lead by example. When I do get my 200 mile BEV, I will take it on these longer trips. I'll be sure to tell my friends and family how enjoyable the trip was. A lot of them just need to see it firsthand.

PHEVs are also a good gateway. If nothing else, it gets people used to the idea of starting each day with a full charge. From there, it's a smaller step to see that you don't necessarily need a 15-minute full charge on the road.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

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IssacZachary
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Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Wed May 31, 2017 9:55 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
IssacZachary wrote:What if everyone on this forum site that's contemplating on trading in their less-than-$10,000-worth Nissan Leaf for a $40,000 +200 mile EV just donated the $30,000 dollars to fund DCQC stations?
:mrgreen:


If I did that, I would still have an ugly, mediocre-to-drive, 50-mile EV without a DCQC port.

For me, my Leaf covers maybe 90% of my trips, but less than 50% of my miles. I have a short commute, and live in a county that is roughly a square, 30 miles on edge. The Leaf handles my day-to-day very well. But I leave town almost every other weekend, and travel 250-300 miles each way. A 200 mile range, with a single QC pitstop is all I need. Adding 30 minutes of charging to a trip that already takes 4-5 hours is hardly an inconvenience - it takes that long to get the kids out of the car, use the rest room, and get back in and buckled up. Currently I just take the PHEV, but I'd really like to kick the gas habit completely.

And I agree that both cars don't need to handle these trips. So a 200-mile BEV would be a perfect complement to my 50-mile BEV. I think there is room in my driveway (and budget) for one of each. If Nissan were to offer 30kWh and 60kWh batteries in a nicer looking car that was actually fun to drive, then I could imagine having two Leafs.

I've got the opposite situation. I have a CHAdeMO port on my Leaf that I'll probably never use. If I got a 60kWh car I'd still probably never use it. The reason is because there is no DCQC infrastructure here. So on a 300 or more mile trip to Denver, Santa Fe or where have you, instead of pulling over and charging for 4 hours every 80 miles I'd now have to pull over and charge for 8 hours every 160 miles (although the majority of L2 stations I've seen around here have a 4 hour limit). It would save me some time since I'd have a longer head start and then be able to leave more charging for the final destination, but other than that the only benefit would be more range security.
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The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

webb14leafs
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Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Wed May 31, 2017 10:18 am

IssacZachary wrote:I've got the opposite situation. I have a CHAdeMO port on my Leaf that I'll probably never use. If I got a 60kWh car I'd still probably never use it. The reason is because there is no DCQC infrastructure here. So on a 300 or more mile trip to Denver, Santa Fe or where have you, instead of pulling over and charging for 4 hours every 80 miles I'd now have to pull over and charge for 8 hours every 160 miles (although the majority of L2 stations I've seen around here have a 4 hour limit). It would save me some time since I'd have a longer head start and then be able to leave more charging for the final destination, but other than that the only benefit would be more range security.


I have a similar situation. I live in palm beach county, about halfway between orlando and miami. Right now, a trip to either would take about 5 hours because there are ZERO charging options off of I-95 or the Turnpike. With a 200 mile range, I could get beyond both of those places, but I would have to drive atleast 10-20 minutes off of the freeway and THEN charge the car for over an hour. For every 3 hours of driving, I would spend nearly 2 charging (if you include the time to get to and from the charger). This is still unacceptable.

sub3marathonman
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Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Wed May 31, 2017 10:29 am

johnlocke wrote:The real problem is not what size the battery needs to be but rather how long will the battery last! If you could guarantee the the battery capacity for the life of the car, then you could just buy the size that suits your needs. But the reality of it is that the Nissan battery degrades with age and a 30 KWH mi battery is going to be good for maybe 40-50 miles after 5-6 years. You need to buy a 60 KWH battery if you want a 100 mi range in 5-6 years. ICE vehicles don't have this problem, their gas tanks never get smaller and gas milage declines only slightly as they age. Tesla seems to do much better with their batteries. Tesla may have a better technology or battery cooling solution but Nissan batteries have a lousy track record and capacity loss is a fact of life. I can live with a 30 KWH battery but not a 20 KWH. As far as the added weight of a larger battery goes, it wouldn't be much different than adding a couple of passengers.
...
The real question is can anyone other than Tesla build a decent battery that will last the life of the car?


Having lived with a 5-capacity-bar remaining LEAF, 26 miles to LBW, my perspective has changed. Every day those batteries are one day closer to death, even in a Tesla. So unless you're driving your 60kWh battery 200 miles a day, you've left excess battery capacity wasted. I know there are people who have long commutes, but for the vast majority, I'd be surprised if it was more than 50 miles per day.

And yes, that 60kWh battery might be down to your essential 100 mile range in 5-6 years, but you are closing in on the end of life for that pack, because now you're at the point where the weak cells will start to fail. And one weak cell essentially destroys the usability of the entire pack. Then you're looking at replacing 60kWh of batteries, and if the economics don't make sense for a 5-year-old LEAF with 24kWh, how much will it make sense for a 5-year-old LEAF with 60kWh? Or, at a certain number of years, even a Tesla, as other things will start wearing out over time and distance.

Bob Wilson, (IIRC), back on the Prius forum, used to be a big advocate of 120V charging, and if his vision was implemented, there would be dozens of 120V charging outlets for people to use while they're at work, essentially giving them another 1kWh of battery range every hour. Or, your 50 mile round trip is now two trips of 25 miles, easily done with under 10kWh of battery. Even a 100 mile round trip is possible as two 50 mile trips, with recharging at work, although you'd need a bit more than a 10kWh battery. Such accommodations are possible, as there are people with a Volt getting +500 mpg. And their little engine will be able to withstand years of relatively light duty much better and offset the need for 20 or 40kWh of batteries, thus making it a very economical choice. And replacing 10kWh of batteries is a much easier decision than putting 60kWh into a 10-year-old vehicle.

Put another way, yes it is great to not buy gasoline, I love that aspect too, but it would be better if five other guys and myself just bought a few gallons per year.

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IssacZachary
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Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Wed May 31, 2017 1:54 pm

sub3marathonman wrote:Having lived with a 5-capacity-bar remaining LEAF, 26 miles to LBW, my perspective has changed. Every day those batteries are one day closer to death, even in a Tesla. So unless you're driving your 60kWh battery 200 miles a day, you've left excess battery capacity wasted. I know there are people who have long commutes, but for the vast majority, I'd be surprised if it was more than 50 miles per day.

And yes, that 60kWh battery might be down to your essential 100 mile range in 5-6 years, but you are closing in on the end of life for that pack, because now you're at the point where the weak cells will start to fail. And one weak cell essentially destroys the usability of the entire pack. Then you're looking at replacing 60kWh of batteries, and if the economics don't make sense for a 5-year-old LEAF with 24kWh, how much will it make sense for a 5-year-old LEAF with 60kWh? Or, at a certain number of years, even a Tesla, as other things will start wearing out over time and distance.

Bob Wilson, (IIRC), back on the Prius forum, used to be a big advocate of 120V charging, and if his vision was implemented, there would be dozens of 120V charging outlets for people to use while they're at work, essentially giving them another 1kWh of battery range every hour. Or, your 50 mile round trip is now two trips of 25 miles, easily done with under 10kWh of battery. Even a 100 mile round trip is possible as two 50 mile trips, with recharging at work, although you'd need a bit more than a 10kWh battery. Such accommodations are possible, as there are people with a Volt getting +500 mpg. And their little engine will be able to withstand years of relatively light duty much better and offset the need for 20 or 40kWh of batteries, thus making it a very economical choice. And replacing 10kWh of batteries is a much easier decision than putting 60kWh into a 10-year-old vehicle.

Put another way, yes it is great to not buy gasoline, I love that aspect too, but it would be better if five other guys and myself just bought a few gallons per year.

This makes me think of my father.

We had an old 1951 Plymouth Cranbrook that my dad had bought when he was young. With four children to raise and tougher economical times he didn't trade in his car when it needed a new engine. Rather he'd just rebuild it. And when the body and frame stayed getting rusty he'd take it apart, sand it and paint it.

Of course on modern cars the engine lasts longer. But still all cars are ticking time bombs. The engines, or in this case the batteries, will eventually need replacing. And when that happens it's much better to have a less expensive engine or battery.

When my EV battery finally gives out, do I really want to pay $12,000 for a 60kW battery?
2013 SL 50,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

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