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DNAinaGoodWay
Gold Member
Posts: 2632
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:43 am
Delivery Date: 03 Dec 2012
Leaf Number: 23156
Location: Central Massachusetts

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Wed May 31, 2017 3:58 pm

Philosophy? OK. How's this: The more range the better.

Given: I've lived 5 years with a 24 kWh car, have other cars, never taken the Leaf more than 200 miles in one trip. So I don't "need" more range.

But my next lease will be a 60 kWh car, and after that whatever is the most kWh car I can afford without over stretching. Why? I don't "need" to.

I have other needs. I need to think less about how much range I have vs how much range I need. I like to wander, not plan. Many times we've taken another car just because we couldn't predict how our trip would turn out. Done with that.
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new

@ 25 months, 25k, 267 GID, 56.88 Ahr
@ 29 months, 29k, 286 GID, 60.88 Ahr
@ 31 months, 30.3k, 274 GID, 58.39 Ahr

6.72 kW Array

webb14leafs
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:43 am
Delivery Date: 27 Mar 2017

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:54 am

DNAinaGoodWay wrote:Philosophy? OK. How's this: The more range the better.

Given: I've lived 5 years with a 24 kWh car, have other cars, never taken the Leaf more than 200 miles in one trip. So I don't "need" more range.

But my next lease will be a 60 kWh car, and after that whatever is the most kWh car I can afford without over stretching. Why? I don't "need" to.

I have other needs. I need to think less about how much range I have vs how much range I need. I like to wander, not plan. Many times we've taken another car just because we couldn't predict how our trip would turn out. Done with that.


Absolutely more range is better, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.

The goal of auto manufacturers is to penetrate an uneasy market. There's no range that will do this if we don't improve our charging infrastructure.

There's no doubt that a 60kWhr car will have more utility, but without better charging, there's still a line that can't be crossed for most people. I drive 130 miles to Orlando about once a month or so. The 60kWh car would accomodate this, and I would be very happy about it. It wouldn't, however, work for my occasional trips to Georgia, or to see my sister in North Carolina, or to the Keys. These trips would only be reasonably possible if there were abundant and fast charging stations near the freeway/turnpike. This fact didn't keep me out of the EV market, but I think it does for some.

magico13
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:39 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:25 am

Charging infrastructure is incredibly important for any sort of long range trips and if it were better I'd feel more comfortable with taking the LEAF on trips more than 50 miles. Except that you have to spend a half hour charging for every hour of driving, which just isn't feasible in the slightest. That's part of why I want a Model 3, at least then I could drive for 3 hours and charge for 30 minutes, which is far more reasonable to me.

150 miles of range would be my sweet spot. I have regular trips that are 50-60 miles each way and I can't easily charge at the end point (again, the infrastructure is an issue). One of my trips has a fast charger near the end (but still a few miles out of the way) and another in the middle, but I would probably have to stop twice, once at the end and again on the way home, which would cost $20+ and add an hour of charging time to 2 hours of driving. It's cheaper and faster just to take my wife's Rav4 that gets 24mpg. With 150 miles of EPA range I could make that trip there and back without having to spend a bunch of time and money charging, during the summer and maybe the winter. The other 50 mile trip has no fast chargers along the route and I can only trickle charge at the end, so if we're not staying there for over a day then we have to take the Rav4. Again, 150 miles range would allow me to make that trip there and back without charging if necessary. That one has a ferry ride toward the end and parking is much cheaper than taking the car across, but I wouldn't be able to make it home in the LEAF if I didn't recharge.

With 200+ miles range I can make all of those regular trips without recharging, in winter, in 5 or more years. It would almost eliminate any need for us to have an ICE, whereas the LEAF still absolutely requires us to have one. Add in good charging infrastructure (ie, superchargers since they're fast and regularly spaced) and we could do any road trip in an EV that I can think of us conceivably wanting to do. I'd really love to give my wife the LEAF and have a Model 3 (or Bolt, but charging infrastructure again...) for myself, which would work for 99% of our driving.
2015 SV w/ QC

powersurge
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:42 am

All of this debate about the NEED to increase range and what it takes for car makers to get "market penetration" of electric cars is very humorous to me... I feel, like a number of posters on this topic think that debating what the ideal electric car is.... Buying the car that fills your daily needs.

I don't care about anybody who poo poos the current Leafs because they may "need" to go on a 150, 200, or 300 mile trip. If that is really YOUR priority, DONT BUY AN EV... Even if car makers satisfied those requirements, you would find some guys that complain they need a car to cover a 400 or 500 mile trip!!!

The older I get, the more I find that you have to live your life for "what you need", and you will be happy, and.... that there is "No free lunch" (for you old timers that know what that means). For arguments sake, Sure, you could get a 100KWH battery that could do everything you want. BUT, you would pay dearly for that luxury, and that convenience would cost more than the car itself. Forget about replacing it when your car is 10 year old..

SO... IMVVVHO..... I am perfectly happy with my Current Leaf, I will love driving it every day I own it. I will be perfectly happy replacing the "small" battery some day (for an affordable "small battery" price). I would love to be driving My leaf for decades more, and have people say... "wow that is a Leaf, the first good EV!"

I do not care that my Leaf can't go 150 miles nonstop. I do not care that some people don't like that. ALSO, I do not care what the car companies "have to do" to increase EV car sales (I KNOW that they are not interested in even marketing electric cars, or they would have in the past 7 years of the Leaf)...

MY HOPEFUL WISH - What I would LOVE... If the federal and local governments really wanted, they would install charging stations in all public parking, malls, schools, gas stations, churches, and government buildings. THEN the general public would have a greater interest in electric cars... For you historians, in New York, a man named Robert Moses was the builder of amazing highways in New York in the 1950s and 60s.... BEFORE there was a need for big highways. What happened? People began buying cars to use those highways... Point made...

User avatar
DNAinaGoodWay
Gold Member
Posts: 2632
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:43 am
Delivery Date: 03 Dec 2012
Leaf Number: 23156
Location: Central Massachusetts

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:57 am

webb14leafs wrote:
DNAinaGoodWay wrote:Philosophy? OK. How's this: The more range the better.

Given: I've lived 5 years with a 24 kWh car, have other cars, never taken the Leaf more than 200 miles in one trip. So I don't "need" more range.

But my next lease will be a 60 kWh car, and after that whatever is the most kWh car I can afford without over stretching. Why? I don't "need" to.

I have other needs. I need to think less about how much range I have vs how much range I need. I like to wander, not plan. Many times we've taken another car just because we couldn't predict how our trip would turn out. Done with that.


Absolutely more range is better, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.

The goal of auto manufacturers is to penetrate an uneasy market. There's no range that will do this if we don't improve our charging infrastructure.

There's no doubt that a 60kWhr car will have more utility, but without better charging, there's still a line that can't be crossed for most people. I drive 130 miles to Orlando about once a month or so. The 60kWh car would accomodate this, and I would be very happy about it. It wouldn't, however, work for my occasional trips to Georgia, or to see my sister in North Carolina, or to the Keys. These trips would only be reasonably possible if there were abundant and fast charging stations near the freeway/turnpike. This fact didn't keep me out of the EV market, but I think it does for some.


Well, they're already testing highway embedded charging systems. Maybe we'll leapfrog into that so you only need a smaller battery for local travel.
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new

@ 25 months, 25k, 267 GID, 56.88 Ahr
@ 29 months, 29k, 286 GID, 60.88 Ahr
@ 31 months, 30.3k, 274 GID, 58.39 Ahr

6.72 kW Array

webb14leafs
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:43 am
Delivery Date: 27 Mar 2017

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:03 am

powersurge wrote:All of this debate about the NEED to increase range and what it takes for car makers to get "market penetration" of electric cars is very humorous to me... I feel, like a number of posters on this topic think that debating what the ideal electric car is.... Buying the car that fills your daily needs.

I don't care about anybody who poo poos the current Leafs because they may "need" to go on a 150, 200, or 300 mile trip. If that is really YOUR priority, DONT BUY AN EV... Even if car makers satisfied those requirements, you would find some guys that complain they need a car to cover a 400 or 500 mile trip!!!

The older I get, the more I find that you have to live your life for "what you need", and you will be happy, and.... that there is "No free lunch" (for you old timers that know what that means). For arguments sake, Sure, you could get a 100KWH battery that could do everything you want. BUT, you would pay dearly for that luxury, and that convenience would cost more than the car itself. Forget about replacing it when your car is 10 year old..

SO... IMVVVHO..... I am perfectly happy with my Current Leaf, I will love driving it every day I own it. I will be perfectly happy replacing the "small" battery some day (for an affordable "small battery" price). I would love to be driving My leaf for decades more, and have people say... "wow that is a Leaf, the first good EV!"

I do not care that my Leaf can't go 150 miles nonstop. I do not care that some people don't like that. ALSO, I do not care what the car companies "have to do" to increase EV car sales (I KNOW that they are not interested in even marketing electric cars, or they would have in the past 7 years of the Leaf)...

MY HOPEFUL WISH - What I would LOVE... If the federal and local governments really wanted, they would install charging stations in all public parking, malls, schools, gas stations, churches, and government buildings. THEN the general public would have a greater interest in electric cars... For you historians, in New York, a man named Robert Moses was the builder of amazing highways in New York in the 1950s and 60s.... BEFORE there was a need for big highways. What happened? People began buying cars to use those highways... Point made...


Not sure what thread you've been reading, but I haven't seen much poo-pooing. It's safe to say that most people who buy an EV do so, at least partially, because it results in cleaner air, and a cleaner environment. As such, we would like to see the industry succeed as quickly as possible.

I'm simply asking if improving the charging infrastructure would do more for the industry than producing cars with greater range. Some people agree, and some people are respectfully disagreeing based on their individual needs and experiences. Some are just illustrating my point by describing their frustrations with a lack of infrastructure.

In the end it looks like you agree with me, which makes your somewhat rude statements seem a bit odd. I agree with your hopeful wish.

Hopefully, my question becomes moot and the market becomes flooded with BOTH long-range EVs AND high speed chargers in the next 12-24 months.

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IssacZachary
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Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:57 am
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 420789
Location: Gunnison, CO, USA

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:05 am

Would car manufacturers please make a BEV that has at least a 6,000 mile range so that I can go see my sister in Belize and not have to worry about finding charging stations along the way or down there. Sheesh! Get it right car manufacturers! :roll:

(PS. I was being sarcastic.)

I'm afraid everyone is going to have a different point of view on this.

I love my Leaf. I've done trips that are several hundred miles in it and am planning to do more.. I really don't care about having to stop at conveniently placed L2 stations. The L1 stops are a bit much and some of the L2 stations are in odd inconvenient locations around here. If L3 stations existed in my part of the world it would be even better! Perfect in my Leaf! I like taking my time. Even when I go visit my Mother-in-law over 600 miles away I like to take my time. I drive an hour and rest half an hour. To bad there aren't any CHAdeMO stations or even L2 stations between here and there.

I plan on keeping my Leaf for a long as possible. I'm not the kind of guy who has to buy the newest and the latest. I still have my first smartphone, which is only my second cellphone. And to tell you the truth I wish I still had my first cellphone, that sleek, beautiful little Nokia candybar. If it weren't for my Father-in-law, my wife and I would probably still be driving around in our first car that we bought 11 years ago. And only last year did I finally retire our first computer that we also had bought 11 years ago.

But most people want the latest and the greatest and the fastest and the most powerful. I'm not saying that all of this isn't better. But at what price? If I'm forking money through my nose for all this then what's the point? Isn't one of the reasons for buying an EV the economical aspect of it? If the battery costs the same as a new ICEV, then where are the savings?

Yes, I do see where having longer range would be better. I also see where actually having a charging infrastructure would be better. I also see where saving my time and money for more important things is definitely better.

DNAinaGoodWay wrote:Well, they're already testing highway embedded charging systems. Maybe we'll leapfrog into that so you only need a smaller battery for local travel.


I like this idea. But I also liked the CHAdeMO idea and that never happened here and probably never will.
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
Other vehicles: 1972 VW Super Beetle 1600cc dual port engine. 1985 VW Golf non-turbo 1.6L diesel.

User avatar
DNAinaGoodWay
Gold Member
Posts: 2632
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:43 am
Delivery Date: 03 Dec 2012
Leaf Number: 23156
Location: Central Massachusetts

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:39 pm

The next few years will feature more stations as well as 200 mile range being the standard for a while. Except for Tesla, the station situation will continue as it has with only modest velocity. Some areas will always be better than others. Neither factor will make EVs mainstream. People are perfectly happy with their ICE vehicles and more range and stations won't make them switch. More model variety and lower prices will help, but that takes time. Gas price hikes would flip the market in a hurry, but that's not on the horizon right now. It's all about the money. So, slow, steady growth for now. Horses took decades to fade away too.
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new

@ 25 months, 25k, 267 GID, 56.88 Ahr
@ 29 months, 29k, 286 GID, 60.88 Ahr
@ 31 months, 30.3k, 274 GID, 58.39 Ahr

6.72 kW Array

johnlocke
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:18 pm

More chargers are on the way, Courtesy of VW and their Diesel fiasco. The court ordered consent decree requires that VW spend 15 Billion Dollars over the next few years for remediation of their diesel emissions problem. A large portion of it will be for level 3 charging stations.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

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IssacZachary
Forum Supporter
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:57 am
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 420789
Location: Gunnison, CO, USA

Re: Cart Before The Horse??

Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:48 pm

johnlocke wrote:More chargers are on the way, Courtesy of VW and their Diesel fiasco. The court ordered consent decree requires that VW spend 15 Billion Dollars over the next few years for remediation of their diesel emissions problem. A large portion of it will be for level 3 charging stations.

Sorry if this is a thread derailer question, but I have to ask:

Is there any guarantee that those stations will have CHAdeMO? Or is CHAdeMO going to be phased out? And if so, is there an adapter to use other types of DCQC?
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
Other vehicles: 1972 VW Super Beetle 1600cc dual port engine. 1985 VW Golf non-turbo 1.6L diesel.

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