leafdriving
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:25 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Oct 2017

Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:39 pm

Hi everyone. I lost my first bar yesterday. Kinda bummed out since I didn’t expect it to happen so soon.
Here’s what I get from LeafSpy Lite:
AHr= 54.98 SOH= 84% SOC= 70.9% Hx= 81.09% 384.78V -0.45A odo= 23,798 3 QCs & 1417 L1/L2s

The build date is 10/13 and I bought it used in February of this year. I don’t drive much; I’ve only put 2900 miles on it since I bought it and I have to admit I baby the car. The car’s original owner lived in Cupertino, CA and I’m in east bay (SF bay area). I don’t know much else about the previous owner’s habits other than location and what LeafSpy provided me today. I also assume he always charged it to 100% since the “Long-life mode” was turned off when I got it.

Here are my habits: 80% mode on, usually keep the batter around 50%, occasionally get down to 15-20% remaining and then L1 charge it at the latest the next day, and never QC it.
We did have a pretty hot summer this year (hit over 110 a couple times) and I wasn’t able park the car in the shade. The highest I ever saw the battery temp was 7 bars and that was about 3 times.

I've read a lot of posts of folks who are in hot climates losing their first bar at much higher miles. Based on the info I’ve provided can any one shed some light on why I’ve probably lost my first bar already? I’m surprised given the build date, miles, almost no QCs, and the climate the car has spent it’s entire life. Part of me feels “it is what it is” but I can’t help but think that the battery is going to quickly degrade and I’ll hit under 9 bars soon after the warranty expires in 12/2018.

Thanks guys!

baustin
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:23 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2015
Leaf Number: 402162
Location: North Las Vegas, NV

Re: Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:00 pm

Batteries degrade from time and number of cycles, and heat accelerates the degradation. Just losing the first bar on a four year old battery is about what is expected. It is better for the battery to sit between 20% and 80% when idle. There is nothing wrong with charging to 100%, and it needs done regularly to balance the cells. Just don't let it sit at 100% for extended periods, especially in high heat.
2013 Leaf SV - Cayenne Red - QC Port - LED Headlights

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6946
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:36 pm

It was left at 100% charge in the heat for extended periods. I've taken care of mine since the end of the first year, and it's likely at about 86% SOH now anyway. Hot Summers and plain old age take a toll. QCs may actually help battery health, BTW, if done when the pack is cool.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 7083
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:49 pm

leafdriving wrote:We did have a pretty hot summer this year (hit over 110 a couple times) and I wasn’t able park the car in the shade. The highest I ever saw the battery temp was 7 bars and that was about 3 times.

The above didn't help.

Also, the temp bars are crap, with huge overlapping ranges: http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Batt ... ture_Gauge. You can get the real temps from the sensors via Leaf Spy.
LeftieBiker wrote:It was left at 100% charge in the heat for extended periods....
Hot Summers and plain old age take a toll.

Probably yes on the first. The previous person may not have cared too much about preserving the life of the battery nor known the proper steps nor monitored pack temps w/Leaf Spy. If they were leasing w/no intent to buy.... there's not much of a reason for many to care.

My 5/2013 built '13 Leaf which was previously serviced in Santa Clara and registered in Saratoga (that's about all I know) that I bought used in July 2015 still has all 12 bars but is creeping towards losing 1. Fortunately, during hot weekdays this past summer, I was able to keep the car in the shade and usually either in a cooler underground parking garage or slightly undergound portion of the parking structure near my current building @ work. From what I can tell from ambient temps and battery temps, it can stay below 80 F there even when it's 95+ F outside at ground level.

My own stats as of last night:
AHr: 55.64
SOH: 85%
Hx: 82.52% (I've not seen Hx get down to 82.xx% until real recently)
odo: 48,735 miles
QCs: 0 (mine has no CHAdeMO inlet)
L1/L2s: 3172 (yes, this has known quirks and I do use the 80% timer w/midnight to midnight trick)

I'll be surprised if I still haven't lost a capacity bar before May 2018.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

leafdriving
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:25 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Oct 2017

Re: Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:43 pm

Thanks for the replies! I really appreciate you guys sharing your knowledge and experiences. A couple more questions:

1. If I take care of the car now will the battery degrade based on how I use/treat it? Or is the "damage" already done and the battery will continue to degrade quickly (I say quickly because I see a lot of people with my LeafSpy numbers but at 35-45k miles)?

2. Anyone know how much just plain age affects these batteries (for example: will a 2014 year old leaf with say 15k miles have much lower AHr than a 2017 with 15k miles, both in same climate and charging habits?

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6946
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:08 pm

Care and, more importantly, lower temps will slow degradation. The packs degrade much more slowly in cool temps than in hot weather. How you treat the pack matters, but it matters less than how hot it gets.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

Evoforce
Posts: 637
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:36 pm

My advice is to not go OCD on it. Sure, give it a little love but don't go extreme. Enjoy it as a normal car and drive it.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

WetEV
Posts: 1738
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:41 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:QCs may actually help battery health, BTW, if done when the pack is cool.


QCs to improve the reported numbers, but likely don't do anything to actually improve the battery.

Both high charge and high discharge rates matter, but both don't matter as much as the temperature.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

Becky50
Gold Member
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:42 pm
Delivery Date: 02 Aug 2012
Leaf Number: 019032
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:55 pm

[quote][/quote]My advice is to not go OCD on it. Sure, give it a little love but don't go extreme. Enjoy it as a normal car and drive it.
One of the original Forum members gave me this same advice in early 2013. I took it and am still loving driving my 2012 LEAF. It is a 2 bar loser with 36,000 miles. And it continues to meet 99% of my driving needs.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:04 am

leafdriving wrote:Hi everyone. I lost my first bar yesterday. Kinda bummed out since I didn’t expect it to happen so soon.
Here’s what I get from LeafSpy Lite:
AHr= 54.98 SOH= 84% SOC= 70.9% Hx= 81.09% 384.78V -0.45A odo= 23,798 3 QCs & 1417 L1/L2s

The build date is 10/13 and I bought it used in February of this year. I don’t drive much; I’ve only put 2900 miles on it since I bought it and I have to admit I baby the car. The car’s original owner lived in Cupertino, CA and I’m in east bay (SF bay area). I don’t know much else about the previous owner’s habits other than location and what LeafSpy provided me today. I also assume he always charged it to 100% since the “Long-life mode” was turned off when I got it.

Here are my habits: 80% mode on, usually keep the batter around 50%, occasionally get down to 15-20% remaining and then L1 charge it at the latest the next day, and never QC it.
We did have a pretty hot summer this year (hit over 110 a couple times) and I wasn’t able park the car in the shade. The highest I ever saw the battery temp was 7 bars and that was about 3 times.

I've read a lot of posts of folks who are in hot climates losing their first bar at much higher miles. Based on the info I’ve provided can any one shed some light on why I’ve probably lost my first bar already? I’m surprised given the build date, miles, almost no QCs, and the climate the car has spent it’s entire life. Part of me feels “it is what it is” but I can’t help but think that the battery is going to quickly degrade and I’ll hit under 9 bars soon after the warranty expires in 12/2018.

Thanks guys!


This is anecdotal, but I think L2 charging is better for the battery health than L1 charging (my 2013 was until I lost the first bar at 35k miles). And occasionally (monthly?) charging to 100% to re-balance the cells should also help.

But as the others have mentioned, just enjoy your leaf. It was meant to be driven.
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs]

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