toolmanca1
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Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:52 am
Delivery Date: 16 Oct 2012

Anyone want to sue Nissan for inaccurate battery capacity for warranty?

Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:08 pm

Given we all can see on LeafSpy how much actual kwh at full charge DTE (distance to empty?) we have, we can prove that while the dash bars indicate, like mine 9/12=75% battery capacity, the LeafSpy reports I only have 10.8kwh/27kwh (original capacity)=40% capacity left. So we should easily be able to prove that all of our cars are not accurately representing the actual capacity left and therefore Nissan is not living up to the intent that batteries be replaced if they fall beneath 75% capacity. Open and shut case? Who wants to join me?

Dave

cwerdna
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Re: Anyone want to sue Nissan for inaccurate battery capacity for warranty?

Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:35 pm

toolmanca1 wrote:Given we all can see on LeafSpy how much actual kwh at full charge DTE (distance to empty?) we have, we can prove that while the dash bars indicate, like mine 9/12=75% battery capacity, the LeafSpy reports I only have 10.8kwh/27kwh (original capacity)=40% capacity left. So we should easily be able to prove that all of our cars are not accurately representing the actual capacity left and therefore Nissan is not living up to the intent that batteries be replaced if they fall beneath 75% capacity.

First off, 27 kWh is wrong. Nissan has spec'ed the '11 and '15 Leaf as have 24 kWh capacity when new.

These two and MANY other sources mention the 24 kWh pack:
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/ ... ress-kit-3
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/ ... -press-kit

Not all of it is usable nor user accessible. Some is inaccessible at the top and some at the bottom.

It's usually accepted there are ~21 to 22 kWh usable on 24 kWh battery equipped Leaf, when new.

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Batt ... y_Behavior was from a table in the '11 Leaf service manual. It was removed (for an unknown reason) on service manuals for later model year Leafs.

Although viewtopic.php?t=13192 says
In addition to the existing lithium-ion battery coverage provided under the Nissan Electric Vehicle Limited Warranty for defects in materials or workmanship, the lithium-ion battery for your 2011 or 2012 Nissan LEAF is now also warranted against capacity loss below nine (9) bars (or approximately below 70 percent) as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first.

The warranty booklets for '13+ Leafs only talk about 9 bars for the capacity warranty. I've never seen any of them EVER say anything about how many % 8 or 9 bars represents. Example for '13: https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... ooklet.pdf from page 8
LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY COVERAGE
In addition to the Lithium-Ion Battery Coverage for
defects in materials or workmanship, the Lithium-
Ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss
below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s
battery capacity level gauge for a period of
60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first.
This warranty covers any repairs needed to return
battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars
on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If
possible, the Lithium-Ion battery components will
be repaired or replaced, and the original Lithium-
Ion battery will be returned to the vehicle. If necessary,
the Lithium-Ion battery will be replaced
with either a new or remanufactured Lithium-Ion
battery. Any repair or replacement made under this
Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not
return your Lithium-Ion battery to an “as new”
condition with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it
will provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine
bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge.
This Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage is
subject to the exclusions listed under the heading
“WHAT IS NOT COVERED.”

Search the PDF yourself about what percentages 8 or 9 bars corresponds to. It's not there. Nissan isn't obligated or required to make each bar correspond to the same percentages or any particular percentages.

Unfortunately, the links at viewtopic.php?t=18905 are busted and the site's gone. If someone still has the verbiage of the amended Klee settlement as it relates to capacity bars and whether it mentions percentages, that would help. I didn't follow it closely since I never had an '11 or '12 so it never applied to me.

Back to your first statement about Leaf Spy and claims of 10.8 kWh or whatever, forget it. See viewtopic.php?p=472552#p472552 and viewtopic.php?p=476092#p476092. You can easily make that figure higher or lower by changing the Wh/Gid setting.

How many gids does Leaf Spy read on a 100% charge? What are your AHr, SOH and Hx values?
toolmanca1 wrote: Open and shut case?

Nope. You are WAY off. You have some significant misunderstandings and haven't done your homework. Good luck with that.

Also, if you have an '11 or '12 and you didn't opt out of the Klee settlement, (IANAL: I Am Not A Lawyer) I doubt you could re-litigate this matter since the '11 and '12 Leaf never shipped originally w/any capacity warranty. And, if you didn't opt out or object to a class action settlement, it means that you're ok w/the settlement.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

SageBrush
Posts: 1221
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Location: Colorado

Re: Anyone want to sue Nissan for inaccurate battery capacity for warranty?

Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:15 am

OP: learn to write coherent sentences, then at least I will be able to follow your argument.

Below is one of the LeafSpy screens from the paid version. None of the numbers displayed are the battery capacity.

Image
Last edited by SageBrush on Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

LeftieBiker
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Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Anyone want to sue Nissan for inaccurate battery capacity for warranty?

Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:25 am

OP: learn to write coherent sentences, then at least I will be able to follow your argument.


The sentences are perfectly coherent. The underpinnings of the arguments are incorrect, but there is nothing wrong with the language. I find it ironic that with all the phone-dictated gibberish posted here, you decided to attack one of the perfectly adequate writers...
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

powersurge
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Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Anyone want to sue Nissan for inaccurate battery capacity for warranty?

Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:25 am

I swear, Leafspy has caused more problems for people since the writer tried to help people by creating the app.

People love to complain about their car's voltage, cells, capacity, and even the reported air pressure in their tires. Its like people cant handle getting a little information. They get obsessed with calculating, proving, and comparing the information on Leafspy and other things.

Leafspy is a great little program that was made to give use more information than the stupid GOM. Used it to get a general idea of your car's functioning, and just drive the car.

toolmanca1
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:52 am
Delivery Date: 16 Oct 2012

Re: Anyone want to sue Nissan for inaccurate battery capacity for warranty?

Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:11 pm

Thank you LeftieBiker for helping me not feel like an incoherent boob!

Thank you Cwerdna for very helpful information to correct my overall understanding of this whole situation. I really appreciate it. To answer your question, I show, fully charged:
- 139 GIDS (49.5%)
- 73% SOC
- 31.74 Ah
- Hx = 45.23%

To Powersurge's point, is there a simple way to answer my question, what % of my battery's original energy capacity is still left available? My mileage is 50% less under the same commute conditions. I am 2 days before the 5yr warranty expires, at 40K miles, with 9 bars still left. :-(

Thanks to all for your valuable input.

Dave

User avatar
davewill
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Location: San Diego, CA, US

Re: Anyone want to sue Nissan for inaccurate battery capacity for warranty?

Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:27 pm

toolmanca1 wrote:... To Powersurge's point, is there a simple way to answer my question, what % of my battery's original energy capacity is still left available? My mileage is 50% less under the same commute conditions. I am 2 days before the 5yr warranty expires, at 40K miles, with 9 bars still left. :-(

Thanks to all for your valuable input.

Dave

The only measure that you could do that might be relevant would be a road test under controlled conditions (flat, same route, speed, temp, etc...) from full charge to turtle. If you actually only had half of the miles that such a test showed originally (you did do one, right?), then you might have something to take to Nissan. I don't know how you decided that your "mileage is 50% less", but it probably isn't really so. You might have only half as many miles on your GOM, or half as many miles till you reach the red bars, but that doesn't equal the same thing.
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cwerdna
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Re: Anyone want to sue Nissan for inaccurate battery capacity for warranty?

Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:34 pm

toolmanca1 wrote:Thank you Cwerdna for very helpful information to correct my overall understanding of this whole situation. I really appreciate it. To answer your question, I show, fully charged:
- 139 GIDS (49.5%)
- 73% SOC
- 31.74 Ah
- Hx = 45.23%

No prob.

What's your SOH? 31.74 Ah sounds really low. You're getting AHr from the correct place, right? The AHr of 41.88 from the screen at viewtopic.php?p=494827#p494827 would be the correct place.

You sure you're not only charging to 80% via a timer or something? 139 gids on a full charge sounds way low for a 9 bar car. (I don't track 3 or 4 bar loser stats much since I still have all 12 of mine). Here's a wild guess from me, if we do 281 gids * 65% = ~182 gids. If your car truly is a 9 bar car and not one that had its BMS reset (where 9 bars is actually an inflated and incorrect value until the BMS is done relearning the battery), I'd expect a full charge to be in that ballpark.

I quickly found some 4 bar loser stats at viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19967&start=420. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19967&start=420 shows what a 9 bar car looks like, fully charged. You should have all 12 fuel bars but be down 3 capacity bars.

Example 8 bar cars on a full charge I quickly found:
- 167 gids on a full charge (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19967&p=468704&hilit=gids#p468704)
- 173 gids (viewtopic.php?p=497489#p497489).

(My 12 bar '13 on the verge of losing 1 bar tends to be at around 245 gids on a full charge.)

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
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