Evoforce
Posts: 832
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:08 pm

edatoakrun, I applaud your honesty on what you are facing in order to help the OP and others facing the same problem. Honest discussion about this issue and banding together as consumers can, and has proven, to help in the past. We may convince Nissan to, yet again, change their policy to help out of warranty consumers on this battery design problem.

In many parts of the country, it only took roughly 24,000ish miles to degrade to 8 bars on 24 kWh packs. It took a lawsuit to get Nissan to (care) the first time. I was really heartened by what they (fairly recently) started doing with offering to help with discounting packs that were past warranty. Now that they have stopped doing that, it is very disheartening. But... maybe they will change the policy back again with enough customer complaints?
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

Evoforce
Posts: 832
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:35 pm

SeasonsAfter wrote:Can you please share your leaf spy numbers on the leaf that dropped the 4th bar 10 days after the warranty expired? I'd like to compare with my numbers to ensure this doesn't happen to me. I might be too late but the mileage of your leaf is similar to mine. I have 4 months to ensure I receive a new battery.

my leaf's numbers, any suggestions or comments would be most helpful. Thanks for all the great responses on this board!

2013 Leaf
manufacture date 1/2013
in service date 2/21/2013
AHr 46.94
SOH 71%
Hx 65.09%
33k on ODO
204 GIDs on full charge


Sorry to say, you are not going to make a free replacement. All next 4 months are cooler temps. In the hot Arizona climate (April-Nov) it would take about 6ish months at your SOH to qualify.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

SeasonsAfter
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:25 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Feb 2015

Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:40 pm

thanks for the brutal truth. No problem, I will use it around town and don't need super high mileage per charge.

Thanks again for all the forum help. You guys rock! Should have been on this forum two years ago.
2013 Leaf
9 of 12 bars remaining (waiting for that 4th bar drop)
manufacture date 1/2013
in service date 2/21/2013
AHr 44.83 (all updated 2/1/2018)
SOH 68%
Hx 61.85%
35k on ODO
194 GIDs on full charge

HiDefGator
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:50 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2011

Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:15 pm

Did you try Nissan EV help?

My 2012 lost 4th bar 4 months out of warranty and they gave me the battery for 50%. $2500. I had bought the car used. All I did was ask.

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 4939
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:10 pm

webb14leafs wrote:Nissan is absorbing a loss on every Leaf sold...


Do you have a source for that?
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

garsh
Posts: 1144
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:27 am
Delivery Date: 05 Apr 2012
Location: Pittsburgh PA

Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:59 am

mxp wrote:If only you were here in the SF Bay Area, I would have directed you to my local service advisor whom I have worked with in getting both our 2011 Leafs replaced on 80/20 split. One caveat, I did have ALL my battery checks done (regardless how silly it was) and this was a key factor.
It's worth a shot. I've had my battery checks done each year, and they've always given me a 5-star report. We'll see if that's worth anything. I need to stop by my dealer tonight anyhow - I'm dropping off the Leaf to get a new inspection sticker (just had to have the windshield replaced due to a crack) and a brake fluid flush (it's been 86,000 miles - I think it's due now).

Is there any chance you can send me the name & number of your service advisor? If the dealership is willing to work as my advocate, maybe they can give my guy some advice for dealing with Nissan corporate.
2012 Black SV, 7 bars, 101,000 miles

SageBrush
Posts: 2903
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:29 am

Nubo wrote:
webb14leafs wrote:Nissan is absorbing a loss on every Leaf sold...


Do you have a source for that?

The evidence is plastered all over the internet:

Look at revenue:
~ $6000 collected at auction,
and another ~ $6000 collected from the lease

Just their pack costs are at least $200 a kWh, and extra pack replacements might even be the norm nowadays

This is not rocket science.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

cwerdna
Posts: 8390
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:31 am

SageBrush wrote:
cwerdna wrote:
SageBrush wrote:consider what it costs just in carrying charges to build out a Supercharger network, a Gigafactory, and a massive overhaul of a car factory to support 10x production.

But all of that is from cash and their depreciation is spread out over tim1.e as part of cost of automotive revenues.

Per http://ir.tesla.com/secfiling.cfm?filin ... IK=1318605
Cost of automotive revenue includes direct parts, material and labor costs, manufacturing overhead, including depreciation costs of tooling and machinery, shipping and logistic costs, vehicle connectivity costs, allocations of electricity and infrastructure costs related to our Supercharger network and reserves for estimated warranty expenses. Cost of automotive revenue also includes adjustments to warranty expense and charges to write-down the carrying value of our inventory when it exceeds its estimated net realizable value and to provide for obsolete or excess inventory.

Those things I quoted aren't a big part of what's causing Tesla to be not profitable because they're already part of the ">20% profit" on each Model S webb14leafs alluded to. Interest expense is also listed in the above SEC filing.

If you quote specifics from the filing, we will at least be talking about the same thing. E.g.,

Total Automotive revenue: 2.289B
Total Automotive Cost of revenues: 1.662B

That works out to ~ 37% margin on cars. If and when Tesla sells 500k cars a year their filing is going to look golden.... until they take their mountain of cash and build more factories.

Sigh.... but there's a LOT more to it than that. There are pesky expenses that all automakers have unless they're winding down operations like R&D, SG&A and numerous other line items.
Selling, general and administrative expense consists primarily of personnel and facilities costs related to our stores, marketing, sales, executive, finance, human resources, information technology and legal organizations, as well as litigation settlements and fees for professional and contract services.

As for their margins, there are assertions that Tesla's margins are artificially inflated since they don't count R&D as part of cost of automotive revenues. The claim (which I haven't personally verified) is that (most? all?) other automakers don't do what Tesla does.

It'll be interesting to see what TSLA reports this time and how Model 3 production is going when they report in less than 8 hours.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 8390
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:38 am

SageBrush wrote:
Nubo wrote:
webb14leafs wrote:Nissan is absorbing a loss on every Leaf sold...


Do you have a source for that?

The evidence is plastered all over the internet:

Look at revenue:
~ $6000 collected at auction,
and another ~ $6000 collected from the lease

On a lease, Nissan collects the $7500 Federal tax credit. My former '13 SV w/both packages sold at auction for somewhere between $10.6K and $11K (viewtopic.php?p=435924#p435924) after 2 years. At the time, my lease ~$314 * 23 payments (this was with Nissan VPP discount) + $395 disposition fee, so about $7617 total. (At that time, another MNLer was helping folks in the Bay Area on leases and sending folks to a dealer I didn't like and had a personal bad experience w/before. He said he couldn't do any better in price.)

Nissan also gets to bank major CA ZEV credits (they had to meet CA ZEV requirements one way or another such as by building ZEVs, PZEVs, AT-PZEVs, etc. or buying from ZEV credits from others) and can and has sold them to other automakers. I'm also reasonably sure that ZEVs help boost Nissan's CAFE mileage and thus lets them save $ elsewhere on trying to make their ICEVs more efficient and/or providing more incentives to push more efficient ICEVs. It also let them continue to sell ICEVs in CA.

(For background on CA ZEV program, see below.
https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/z ... redits.htm
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=379
https://web.archive.org/web/20130305133 ... icles.html.)

And Leaf isn't only sold and leased in the US. Roughly half of all produces so far have been for markets outside the US.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 2903
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Good Will Program over--Lost 4th bar 10 days after warranty expired, Nissan: 'too bad'

Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:42 am

cwerdna wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
Nubo wrote:
Do you have a source for that?

The evidence is plastered all over the internet:

Look at revenue:
~ $6000 collected at auction,
and another ~ $6000 collected from the lease

On a lease, Nissan collects the $7500 Federal tax credit. My former '13 SV w/both packages sold at auction for somewhere between $10.6K and $11K (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 24#p435924) after 2 years. At the time, my lease ~$314 * 23 payments (this was with Nissan VPP discount) + $395 disposition fee, so about $7617 total. (At that time, another MNLer was helping folks in the Bay Area on leases and sending folks to a dealer I didn't like and had a personal bad experience w/before. He said he couldn't do any better in price.)

Nissan also gets to bank major CA ZEV credits (they had to meet CA ZEV requirements one way or another such as by building ZEVs, PZEVs, AT-PZEVs, etc. or buying from ZEV credits from others) and can and has sold them to other automakers. I'm also reasonably sure that ZEVs help boost Nissan's CAFE mileage and thus lets them save $ elsewhere on trying to make their ICEVs more efficient and/or providing more incentives to push more efficient ICEVs. It also let them continue to sell ICEVs in CA.

(For background on CA ZEV program, see below.
https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/z ... redits.htm
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=379
https://web.archive.org/web/20130305133 ... icles.html.)

http://ev-vin.blogspot.com/

The short range EVs (and the Bolt!) are leasing for under $6k for 3 years. I paid $8300 for my off-lease car to a dealer. He told me (after the sale) that he picks them up for under $6k a car. I know that Nissan pockets the tax incentive(s), but that does not come even close to making this a profitable car for Nissan. The CARB credit is a good point -- do you know how much it is worth ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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