NeilBlanchard
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:02 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Oct 2014
Leaf Number: 306278

Re: My Experience: 2018 Leaf vs 2017 Bolt

Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:22 am

lkkms2 wrote:
NeilBlanchard wrote:
I do not fit comfortably in the new Leaf, and my son (who is taller than I am) would literally not fit.

We fit very comfortably in our Bolt EV.


I understand you drove a 15 Leaf S before. Does this comment mean the new Leaf is smaller or harder to get in and out of? Or that you were never really that comfortable in the 15 Leaf.

I sat in a Bolt once when they first came out and understand for some the extra height makes a big difference, but I’d have to sit in one again to focus on the difference.


The new Leaf has changes that push it from borderline, to uncomfortable, for us. The new center console has a flare toward my knee that pushes my right leg out of a position that is better for me, and it has a corner that rests uncomfortably on my leg. And the rear seat is slightly higher, which helps the legs position (that is our biggest issue with the '15), but the new one now has too little headroom.

edatoakrun
Posts: 4757
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: My Experience: 2018 Leaf vs 2017 Bolt

Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:35 pm

GRA wrote:...The LEAF is the only PEV employing passive cooling...

I believe VW is still using conductive cooling, which it introduced in the Golf:

VW decides against active-cooling system for e-Golf lithium battery

...VW engineers tested the NMC cells in places like Death Valley and Arizona and found they didn't warm very quickly either through operation, charging (including during fast charging) or through high ambient temps. "The need for a cooling system wasn't there," Harrison said. Since the cells work so well, all the e-Golf needs to keep the battery pack at the right operating temperature is an intelligent thermal control (which regulates the amount of energy expended form each of the cells to keep the heat down) and the ability to dissipate what heat is created into the chassis and away from the pack....

https://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/31/vw- ... m-battery/

GRA wrote:...The Soul uses cooled air from the cabin, and Phoenix conditions are too much for it...

In all likelihood, "air cooling" is really more of a placebo, than functional. (edit)

GRA wrote:..Nor is liquid cooling a panacea, as it depends on the cooling system temp setpoints. The Focus has much higher setpoints for cooling to kick in than the GM models do, and the battery suffers accordingly...

Why do you keep repeating the same uninformed statements ?

You have no factual basis for your assertion of why the focus packs failed so miserably, (extremely low efficiency/extremely high capacity loss, very similar to the poor performance of the liquid-cooled TSLA packs used in Mercedes B's) and the Chevy Sparks didn't appear to be doing much better in terms of capacity loss, before their own (gentle, low miles driven) testing was terminated:

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2015-chevrolet-spark

The only real conclusion from the AVTA testing is that all the BEV packs tested suffered significant capacity loss when used, while Volt packs, usually just being carried as refrigerated ballast, while the ICEs were used for propulsion, did just fine.

As to the Bolt, GM seems to have adopted a lower-cost simplified cooling plate system, the effectiveness of which in different climates we will not know for many years, if ever:

http://www.hybridcars.com/2017-chevy-bo ... x-details/
Last edited by edatoakrun on Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
no condition is permanent

LeftieBiker
Posts: 7404
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: My Experience: 2018 Leaf vs 2017 Bolt

Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:05 pm

Rapid capacity loss suffered by Souls in cooler climates also suggest the obvious likelihood, that "air cooling" is really more of a placebo, than functional.



Do you have a link for that?
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

edatoakrun
Posts: 4757
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: My Experience: 2018 Leaf vs 2017 Bolt

Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:33 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Rapid capacity loss suffered by Souls in cooler climates also suggest the obvious likelihood, that "air cooling" is really more of a placebo, than functional.

Do you have a link for that?

No, and I apologize, since I should not have made that comment, based only on anecdotal reports. Corrected with edit.
no condition is permanent

GRA
Posts: 7584
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: My Experience: 2018 Leaf vs 2017 Bolt

Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:55 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
GRA wrote:...The LEAF is the only PEV employing passive cooling...

I believe VW is still using conductive cooling, which it introduced in the Golf:

VW decides against active-cooling system for e-Golf lithium battery

...VW engineers tested the NMC cells in places like Death Valley and Arizona and found they didn't warm very quickly either through operation, charging (including during fast charging) or through high ambient temps. "The need for a cooling system wasn't there," Harrison said. Since the cells work so well, all the e-Golf needs to keep the battery pack at the right operating temperature is an intelligent thermal control (which regulates the amount of energy expended form each of the cells to keep the heat down) and the ability to dissipate what heat is created into the chassis and away from the pack....

https://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/31/vw- ... m-battery/

I remember. The sources conflict.

edatoakrun wrote:
GRA wrote:...The Soul uses cooled air from the cabin, and Phoenix conditions are too much for it...

In all likelihood, "air cooling" is really more of a placebo, than functional. (edit)

Possible, but may depend on the chemistry, and also the climate.

edatoakrun wrote:
GRA wrote:..Nor is liquid cooling a panacea, as it depends on the cooling system temp setpoints. The Focus has much higher setpoints for cooling to kick in than the GM models do, and the battery suffers accordingly...

Why do you keep repeating the same uninformed statements ?

You have no factual basis for your assertion of why the focus packs failed so miserably, (extremely low efficiency/extremely high capacity loss, very similar to the poor performance of the liquid-cooled TSLA packs used in Mercedes B's) and the Chevy Sparks didn't appear to be doing much better in terms of capacity loss, before their own (gentle, low miles driven) testing was terminated:

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2015-chevrolet-spark

The only real conclusion from the AVTA testing is that all the BEV packs tested suffered significant capacity loss when used, while Volt packs, usually just being carried as refrigerated ballast, while the ICEs were used for propulsion, did just fine.

IIRR the 2014+? 2015+? Sparks used LMO, while the 2013s used larger (and more temperature tolerant) LiFePo4 packs. I have no doubt that chemistry also plays a role, but the one glaring difference between the Focus and the Volt is that the former allows the pack to reach much higher temps than Li-ion is comfortable with before the cooling system kicks in, and we know that's bad regardless of the specific Li-ion chemistry. As all these cars are being tested in just about the worst possible climate, what we don't know is how much they may differ in less rugged conditions. BTW, how do you figure that the Volt's packs were being carried as refrigerated ballast? I realize that only a portion of their miles were in CD mode, but the battery was still being used much of the rest of the time (CS mode). And we know from numerous owner reports that the Gen 1 packs are holding up well throughout the country in regular use. Gen 2 remains to be seen, although they do seem to be losing capacity at a more rapid rate than Gen 1, IMO likely due to the greater SoC range accessed.

edatoakrun wrote:As to the Bolt, GM seems to have adopted a lower-cost simplified cooling plate system, the effectiveness of which in different climates we will not know for many years, if ever:

http://www.hybridcars.com/2017-chevy-bo ... x-details/

Yes, it's a different cooling system. OTOH GM is offering a hard capacity warranty, albeit lower (60%) than I would like. We're still waiting to see if Nissan will finally do likewise for the LEAF - I'm not holding my breath.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 7404
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: My Experience: 2018 Leaf vs 2017 Bolt

Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:22 pm

I'm not picking nits here. The Soul is on my short list for "Next EV if the tax credit is axed" but it will be crossed off if the pack is degrading anything like the 2017 Leaf pack, which is also crossed off.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: My Experience: 2018 Leaf vs 2017 Bolt

Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:35 pm

My concern with the bolt is the Costco/Sam's club trips. The cargo is key. Bolt has quite a bit less. I do wish they would adopt even a cabin air managed battery warming system.

Range will drive price otherwise. The other challenge is that the US range needs are higher then Japan, so I think they debate whether they want to compete here.
2013 SV Black
Miles: 17500
Average Carwings/Dash Efficiency: 4.5-6.5M/KWh (summer) ~2.8-3.9 winter
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87), Max distance 120 miles

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12340
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: My Experience: 2018 Leaf vs 2017 Bolt

Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:46 am

LeftieBiker wrote:I'm not picking nits here. The Soul is on my short list for "Next EV if the tax credit is axed" but it will be crossed off if the pack is degrading anything like the 2017 Leaf pack, which is also crossed off.


I know a Souler who is getting ready for a dealer visit and says they will run some sort of analysis report on his battery condition so we shall see how his report turns out. He has 30,000 miles in just over a year with a HUGE AMOUNT of fast charging done on several very long trips including driving down to NDEW in the Bay Area from WA.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LeftieBiker
Posts: 7404
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: My Experience: 2018 Leaf vs 2017 Bolt

Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:06 pm

Let's hope it isn't like Nissan's "battery report." Please keep us posted on this.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

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