edatoakrun
Posts: 5218
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Seven year report, 2011 LEAF.

Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:15 pm

Posting ~on my LEAF's build date anniversary, rather than delivery, since I have some free time.

Not much has changed so I'll just add some new specs to my six+ year post below.

I'm expecting to reach about 60 k miles by mid-May, and expect to see about 600 Wh in additional available capacity loss over the last year, the same as the last few years, once temps increase to the point I will regain most of the Winter seasonal capacity loss.

The only real surprise since my six-year post was Nissan's new screw you policy RE pack replacement, instituted last Fall.

So, rather than waiting for eight capacity bars (still at nine bars today, despite ~42.5 AH shown by the LBC) I opened BBB arbitration In November.
I can't say anything positive about the behavior of either Nissan or the BBB in that process, and I still haven't gotten into arbitration yet.

The good news is that finally having a few fairly reliable charge sites both locally and on routes south, I can make most extended trips far more quickly and easily now with a seven-year-old pack, than I could when my LEAF was new.

The bad news, is in that my 50+ mile regular trip minimum, ending with an >1,500 ft ascent, is now only possible using only my preferred "80%" charge to VLBW capacity when I have a combination of pack and ambient temperatures averaging above about 55 F, which has been hard to come by since last October...

edatoakrun wrote:Six years and 52k miles passed a few weeks ago.

Very pleased overall, with my LEAF's performance.

Dependability is such (towed only once, for a sidewall torn by a collapsed pavement edge I carelessly hit) that I will probably still will have never used the extended warranty, when it expires next year.

TCO has been slightly higher than I expected, due to depreciation being a few k$ more than expected, but I'll probably get that (and more) all back, due to much lower than expected prices on new BEVs, when and if I replace my LEAF with another BEV in the future.

There's one major difference I've noticed between my experience and many others on this forum.

Seeing many of the comments and complaints of others, I have to conclude that relying on the innacurate LBC ("gid" meter) while driving a LEAF is an anxiety-inducing experience.

After more than six years, I've never run out of Wh, and never really suffered from "range anxiety" (charge-site anxiety yes, frequently) and largely credit my never relying on my LBC for its estimates of remaining energy capacity or battery capacity loss, for this experience.

Instead of relying on the LBC, I prefer to use only high-integrity data sources, primarily AVTA test results:

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2012-nissan-leaf

And parameters that can be measured accurately, kWh received from the grid, miles driven, and time.

Knowing the approximate nominal kWh available to LBW and VLB from my initial charge of "80%" or "100%", and watching the Nav screen m/kWh while I drive, I know both my nominal kWh used, and what are the approximate N kWh remaining wherever I drive, and can avoid all anxiety caused by the often "pessimistic" estimates from the LBC, of kWh remaining.

I also have a pretty good idea of what my LEAF's total and available battery capacity loss over time has been.

At six years and 52 k miles, my best estimates are:

My LEAF's pack had slightly under 19 kWh total capacity (as per AVTA test standards) and about 17 kWh available, when warm, at ~80 F.

That's about a 21% reduction from the 24 kWh Nissan specified, and ~18.5% lower than the average capacity Nissan actually delivered in 2012, according to AVTA testing of multiple LEAF packs.

My LEAF's range loss has been considerably lower than capacity loss since delivery.

At the relatively slow speeds (mostly mountain roads) I drive my own LEAF's efficiency gain reflects the high driving ranges relative to capacity shown in the AVTA 2012 LEAF 45 mph constant-speed tests, for the LEAFs with the less abused L2-charged packs.

I expect my LEAF's range loss per "100%" charge since delivery probably averaged close to 15% over the last year, higher in Winter and lower in Summer.

The ~32.5% Loss of capacity my LEAF's "pessimistic" LBC showed at six years and 52 k is really only of concern to me in how Nissan will consider this factor when I request (or demand) a replacement battery pack for my LEAF, which I'll probably be doing before Winter.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23733&start=40
no condition is permanent

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OrientExpress
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Posts: 1200
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Seven year report, 2011 LEAF.

Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:33 pm

This is an interesting comparison to show how the LEAF's technology has, and is continuing to improve.

My 2014 now almost has 52000 miles on it, has all its bars and still goes 78-85 miles on a charge.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

plugzin
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 5:33 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 0826
Location: San Diego/Misssion Bay

Re: Seven year report, 2011 LEAF.

Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:58 pm

My 25 year old sons 2011 Leaf has almost 37k on the odometer, and usually shows about 50 miles range when fully charged. Eight capacity bars remain, but it seems to suit his modest commuting needs just fine, for school and part time work. Too bad Nissan's policy changed just as we approached the loss of that fourth bar. Guess that's one reason we are transitioning to Tesla now.
2018 Tesla Model 3, 3/2018
2014 Mercedes B class 12/2014 to 12/2017
2016 Tesla Model S 90D 12/2016
2014 Leaf SL 3/2014 - 3/2017
2011 Leaf SL 2/2014 - "make me an offer"
2002 RAV4 EV 3/2002 - 6/2009
1986 Mercedes 300E 1986 - 2017

DarthPuppy
Posts: 628
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:45 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Aug 2013

Re: Seven year report, 2011 LEAF.

Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:46 pm

Wow. I salute you for continuing to make it work despite challenges the battery deterioration is treating you to. I hope you have luck in resolving the battery dispute.

Keeping these in service long term as long as the battery meets the needs is really the most environmentally friendly option. So other than the battery deterioration, it is still going strong? That bodes well. It might be a good candidate for a battery replacement, even if it has to be paid without help from Nissan. Sadly, the prices of new BEVs haven't dropped all that much, except when viewed in terms of what you get for the money.
'13 Leaf SL
'18 Honda Clarity Touring PHEV

downeykp
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Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:11 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 1931
Location: Keaau, HI

Re: Seven year report, 2011 LEAF.

Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:10 pm

My 2011 has 31,500mi. I am down to 8 bars. It was put into service on May 31 2011. Here on the big island of Hawaii it gets me where I need to go. Even if I had a new battery it would not change where I could go. I would not be able to go to Kona and back without spending time charging in Kona. So it does what I need it to do.
Other than rotating tires every 5000 miles and one cabin filter change, I have not done anything to it. 12 volt battery still works. I have not done anything to the brakes, they work. Didn't upgrade from 2g cell. I just get in and drive.
2011 Black Leaf SL+QC Vin. 1931
Res. 6-14-10 Order 1-25-11
EVSE: Mod'd Ver. 2 Nissan L1
Delivered 5-31-11

7 years 33000mi. 8 bars

39 Suniva panels 10.3kw with Enphase micro inverters my electricity cost $21.87 a month.

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RegGuheert
Posts: 6229
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Seven year report, 2011 LEAF.

Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:55 am

OrientExpress wrote:This is an interesting comparison to show how the LEAF's technology has, and is continuing to improve.

My 2014 now almost has 52000 miles on it, has all its bars and still goes 78-85 miles on a charge.
The new MY2018 LEAF certainly has improved in many ways over the MY2011 LEAFs. And I agree that it appears your MY 2014 battery is holding up well. OTOH, we see MY2016 30-kWh batteries which have already lost four capacity bars in Orlando, FL, after about two years and fewer than 19,000 miles.

It will be interesting to see how the MY2018 batteries hold up. My understanding from a link that you provided is that the capacity increase for the new model was achieved by five main changes: 1) a change of the MNC anode chemistry of the cells, 2) a thinner separator, 3) an increase of the cell thickness by 0.9mm, 4) a change of the number of cells per module from 4 to 8, and 5) a rearrangement of the modules in the battery. Given the thinner separator and if that change in chemistry is from NMC622 to NMC811 as I suspect, then we may find that the capacity loss in the MY2018 batteries may be even more rapid than we are seeing in the MY2016s. Time will tell.

Back on topic: Our MY2011, which was put into service in September 2011 as a demo car, has 9 capacity bars remaining and LeafSpy indicates remaining capacity is about 47 Ah after about 52,000 miles. My wife currently commutes about 50 miles each day in the car as long as the OAT is above about 20F when she departs. Below that temperature or if it is cold and extremely windy, she takes our MY2003 Honda Civic Hybrid, which we purchased almost exactly ten years prior to acquiring our LEAF.

Our LEAF should continue to suffice for my wife's commute through this fall and perhaps through Fall 2019, as well. I doubt that it will be able to make that commute beyond Fall, 2019, however. We are of a similar mindset to DarthPuppy:
DarthPuppy wrote:Keeping these in service long term as long as the battery meets the needs is really the most environmentally friendly option. So other than the battery deterioration, it is still going strong? That bodes well. It might be a good candidate for a battery replacement, even if it has to be paid without help from Nissan. Sadly, the prices of new BEVs haven't dropped all that much, except when viewed in terms of what you get for the money.
When the time comes that she can no longer make her commute, we will probably choose between replacing our LEAF's battery or purchasing a used BEV such as a 2015 LEAF as a replacement.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

opencar
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:31 am
Delivery Date: 01 Jun 2011
Location: San Diego Coastal

Re: Seven year report, 2011 LEAF.

Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:43 am

downeykp wrote:My 2011 has 31,500mi. I am down to 8 bars. It was put into service on May 31 2011. Here on the big island of Hawaii it gets me where I need to go. Even if I had a new battery it would not change where I could go. I would not be able to go to Kona and back without spending time charging in Kona. So it does what I need it to do.
Other than rotating tires every 5000 miles and one cabin filter change, I have not done anything to it. 12 volt battery still works. I have not done anything to the brakes, they work. Didn't upgrade from 2g cell. I just get in and drive.


i do miss the remote status capability but I didn't upgrade either. my 2011 now has 76K mi and I'm 25K on the Lizard replacement. good to still see some of the original gang still driving the first wave of cars.
1st bar- 22K, 27mo, Ah=55.29
2nd- 33K, 37mo, Ah=51.54
3rd- 41K, 46mo, Ah=47.47
4th- 49K, 53mo, Ah=43.28
Warranty Lizard- 50K, Oct'15
Jun'16- 56K, Ah=66.14
Aug'17- 70K, 22mo, Ah=59.9

User avatar
OrientExpress
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Posts: 1200
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Seven year report, 2011 LEAF.

Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:04 am

I think it will be hilarious if the issues with the 30kWh cars turn out to just be software and not anything to do with chemistry.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

LeftieBiker
Posts: 8897
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Seven year report, 2011 LEAF.

Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:02 pm

OrientExpress wrote:I think it will be hilarious if the issues with the 30kWh cars turn out to just be software and not anything to do with chemistry.


Hilarious for whom, exactly? And do you really think that Nissan programmed these cars to appear to drop capacity bars and lose range even though the actual capacity doesn't drop rapidly? You need to pick and choose your talking points a bit more carefully.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

powersurge
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Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Seven year report, 2011 LEAF.

Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:00 am

DarthPuppy wrote:Wow. I salute you for continuing to make it work despite challenges the battery deterioration is treating you to. I hope you have luck in resolving the battery dispute.

Keeping these in service long term as long as the battery meets the needs is really the most environmentally friendly option. So other than the battery deterioration, it is still going strong? That bodes well. It might be a good candidate for a battery replacement, even if it has to be paid without help from Nissan. Sadly, the prices of new BEVs haven't dropped all that much, except when viewed in terms of what you get for the money.


Yes, agreed. I have been using mine for a daily 50 mile round trip commute. When the battery deteriorates, my plan it for my wife to take over the car. She stays at home and only has a 10-15 mile per day need to do errands.... Who knows, we may be able to work the original battery for 10+ years?

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