kennethbokor
Gold Member
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:35 pm
Delivery Date: 30 May 2018
Location: Caledon, ON Canada
Contact: Twitter

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Wed May 02, 2018 5:04 pm

Hi all, I know this thread has been all about concerns for the new Leaf and its battery pack and throttle charging. Many including myself have provided opinions good and bad about this subject and I still believe that the new Leaf is a very valid option.

This new article from InsideEVs is a great use-case for the new Leaf and sheds more light on what I believe (and I think Nissan believes) will be the vast majority of owners needs.

https://insideevs.com/road-tripping-in- ... ssan-leaf/

A couple of highlights from this article that resonate and I quote:

"The rumors about the new Leaf not being able to endure multiple DCQC without excessive charge time slowdowns proved to be unfounded. During the trip, charging behaviors were no different from previous 2011 and 2014 Leafs. The most significant challenge is that a larger battery can mean longer charge times regardless of the charge rate. All BEVs throttle their charge rates as the battery fills up, but the 2018 Leaf’s charge profile does not seem any different from earlier generations. The challenge for all BEVs is that the larger the battery, the longer time it will take. As infrastructure and BEV charge rates increase, charging times will improve, but the laws of physics apply and the bigger the battery, the longer it will always take."

Also quoting:

"Would Clean Fleet Report recommend driving a LEAF cross-country?
No, we would not, but then again, we would not recommend driving any BEV cross country unless the driver has the patience and courage to do so. Even with the Tesla SuperCharger network currently being the most extensive, the national BEV charging infrastructure is still not there. Even vehicles with more than 250 miles of range suffer from other shortcomings that make long-distance travel impractical and unpleasant at this point, except for those with masochistic tendencies."

I think this info hits the nail on the head for why the new Leaf is a very valid choice for a value-packed BEV. Without Active Thermal Management, it will still fit a very large need for many looking to either upgrade an older EV, add another EV or get into the EV market for the first time (like me!).

You all can argue the merits of ATM or no-ATM and other features till your blue in the face, however I believe that Nissan purposefully released this new Leaf in the format it is in to capitalize on furthering growth in the mass-market sector. Tesla can't still really do this with the Model 3 even though they claim it to be a mass-market BEV. They are close, but trying to sell a 3-series BMW to the Honda Civic/Toyota Corolla crowd is tough to do just because its a premium brand.

The new Leaf may not have the best battery pack architecture, however Nissan's record of leading BEV sales worldwide (soon to be passed by Tesla) since 2010, still hold merit as serious battery issues are few considering the number of Leaf's out there. We primarily only hear bad stuff in forums where most of the good news is not communicated. That's just typical human nature.

I would encourage all to read this article and keep the faith for the new Leaf. Yes it could have been better and Nissan should be selling the Leaf with all the facts so that prospective buyers understand the charging dynamics so they can make an informed decision. However, as you can see in this article that portrays a good road-trip user example, the new Leaf is quite a capable BEV.
---------
New Leaf Owner: Just ordered Feb 24 2018, 2018 Leaf SL in Jade Frost. Expected ETA by May 30 2018.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Wed May 02, 2018 5:46 pm

kennethbokor wrote:Hi all, I know this thread has been all about concerns for the new Leaf and its battery pack and throttle charging. Many including myself have provided opinions good and bad about this subject and I still believe that the new Leaf is a very valid option.

This new article from InsideEVs is a great use-case for the new Leaf and sheds more light on what I believe (and I think Nissan believes) will be the vast majority of owners needs.

https://insideevs.com/road-tripping-in- ... ssan-leaf/

A couple of highlights from this article that resonate and I quote:

"The rumors about the new Leaf not being able to endure multiple DCQC without excessive charge time slowdowns proved to be unfounded. During the trip, charging behaviors were no different from previous 2011 and 2014 Leafs. The most significant challenge is that a larger battery can mean longer charge times regardless of the charge rate. All BEVs throttle their charge rates as the battery fills up, but the 2018 Leaf’s charge profile does not seem any different from earlier generations. The challenge for all BEVs is that the larger the battery, the longer time it will take. As infrastructure and BEV charge rates increase, charging times will improve, but the laws of physics apply and the bigger the battery, the longer it will always take."

Also quoting:

"Would Clean Fleet Report recommend driving a LEAF cross-country?
No, we would not, but then again, we would not recommend driving any BEV cross country unless the driver has the patience and courage to do so. Even with the Tesla SuperCharger network currently being the most extensive, the national BEV charging infrastructure is still not there. Even vehicles with more than 250 miles of range suffer from other shortcomings that make long-distance travel impractical and unpleasant at this point, except for those with masochistic tendencies."

I think this info hits the nail on the head for why the new Leaf is a very valid choice for a value-packed BEV. Without Active Thermal Management, it will still fit a very large need for many looking to either upgrade an older EV, add another EV or get into the EV market for the first time (like me!).

You all can argue the merits of ATM or no-ATM and other features till your blue in the face, however I believe that Nissan purposefully released this new Leaf in the format it is in to capitalize on furthering growth in the mass-market sector. Tesla can't still really do this with the Model 3 even though they claim it to be a mass-market BEV. They are close, but trying to sell a 3-series BMW to the Honda Civic/Toyota Corolla crowd is tough to do just because its a premium brand.

The new Leaf may not have the best battery pack architecture, however Nissan's record of leading BEV sales worldwide (soon to be passed by Tesla) since 2010, still hold merit as serious battery issues are few considering the number of Leaf's out there. We primarily only hear bad stuff in forums where most of the good news is not communicated. That's just typical human nature.

I would encourage all to read this article and keep the faith for the new Leaf. Yes it could have been better and Nissan should be selling the Leaf with all the facts so that prospective buyers understand the charging dynamics so they can make an informed decision. However, as you can see in this article that portrays a good road-trip user example, the new Leaf is quite a capable BEV.


I think the author of the article misses the boat entirely. We're all Leaf owners here, and what some of us are finding to be troubling is the fact that the 40kwh has QCFC issues that were NOT present in the older gen vehicles.

All these chemistry and TMS discussions center around that primary issue. BEV's are supposed to get better in capability, not worse. If the charge throttling was enacted to preserve/extend battery life, then great! But at least we needed to know about that before finding out that our long-range trip planning went out the window and that we have a whole new learning curve to go through.

To be honest, I couldn't care less. I feel that Nissan isn't interested in making their leaf for single-car households, and that it is mainly for multi-car households. It just means I continue to advocate it only for a subset of my friends and family. It's just a very hard product to sell, when there are so many "caveats" with its battery. I'm using this thread for awareness, not advocacy.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333

Joe6pack
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:57 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 025854

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Wed May 02, 2018 6:40 pm

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote:
SageBrush wrote:BS


https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ed.105897/

Read and weep.


More BS.
I know you are feeling stupid for buying a LEAF, but this Tesla FUD is not going to persuade anyone against the car and you are STILL stuck with your choice. What can I say -- sucks to be you.


I have never seen an enthusiast website where trolls (tried to think of a nicer word, but couldn't) are allowed to not only post with impunity, but are also allowed to moderate. sagebrush, Oils4AsphaltOnly and Evoforce among others would at least be told to to tone down the negativity and not continually provoke other members on a normal enthusiast site. I am sure this will fall on deaf ears as the foxes are guarding the henhouse here on MNL. I'm starting to wonder if this isn't all part of Tesla's marketing strategy. Tesla trolls seem to dominate most EV oriented websites.

I am pretty much done with this place. I don't have the time to waste continually arguing the same points over and over and there are better, more legitimate places to get information on the new LEAF and EVs in general.

The LEAF is a great car and all the vitrol from all the Tesla trolls in the world can't change that.
2012 Leaf SL leased October 4th, 2012
Braselton, GA

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Wed May 02, 2018 10:02 pm

Joe6pack wrote:
SageBrush wrote:


More BS.
I know you are feeling stupid for buying a LEAF, but this Tesla FUD is not going to persuade anyone against the car and you are STILL stuck with your choice. What can I say -- sucks to be you.


I have never seen an enthusiast website where trolls (tried to think of a nicer word, but couldn't) are allowed to not only post with impunity, but are also allowed to moderate. sagebrush, Oils4AsphaltOnly and Evoforce among others would at least be told to to tone down the negativity and not continually provoke other members on a normal enthusiast site. I am sure this will fall on deaf ears as the foxes are guarding the henhouse here on MNL. I'm starting to wonder if this isn't all part of Tesla's marketing strategy. Tesla trolls seem to dominate most EV oriented websites.

I am pretty much done with this place. I don't have the time to waste continually arguing the same points over and over and there are better, more legitimate places to get information on the new LEAF and EVs in general.

The LEAF is a great car and all the vitrol from all the Tesla trolls in the world can't change that.


You think I'm a Troll?!?! That I need to tone down my negativity?!?!

I've been burned already with a faster degrading battery than my 24kwh leaf and now I'm seeing people being burned by unexpected QCFC behaviour. Maybe I am being too harsh with the 40kwh leaf's "issues", but Nissan, the company, needs to be taken to task for quietly introducing changes that negatively impacts their customers. Blind cheerleading does NOT help .

You have a 2012 leaf, and don't live near the southwest, so you probably have no idea how _betrayed_ some of us feel.

I have a tow-hitch and actively try to demonstrate how versatile and useful my leaf is to my immediate community. I even convinced a close buddy of mine to reserve the 40kwh leaf only to backtrack after finding out about the rapid 30kwh degradation. And this QCFC throttling makes me more reluctant to believe that Nissan has their battery pack management in order. Once more data comes in from 40kwh leaf owners, we'll be better able to assess whether or not Nissan's changes helped or harmed their new leaf.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed in the meantime.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13198
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Thu May 03, 2018 6:29 am

RegGuheert wrote:Here is a review by a 2018 LEAF owner who disagrees with the premise of this thread:
Gary Lieber at InsideEVs wrote:The rumors about the new Leaf not being able to endure multiple DCQC without excessive charge time slowdowns proved to be unfounded. During the trip, charging behaviors were no different from previous 2011 and 2014 Leafs. The most significant challenge is that a larger battery can mean longer charge times regardless of the charge rate. All BEVs throttle their charge rates as the battery fills up, but the 2018 Leaf’s charge profile does not seem any different from earlier generations. The challenge for all BEVs is that the larger the battery, the longer time it will take. As infrastructure and BEV charge rates increase, charging times will improve, but the laws of physics apply and the bigger the battery, the longer it will always take.



Did you do the math on that "normal" charge? 8-)
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

kennethbokor
Gold Member
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:35 pm
Delivery Date: 30 May 2018
Location: Caledon, ON Canada
Contact: Twitter

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Thu May 03, 2018 9:32 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:Here is a review by a 2018 LEAF owner who disagrees with the premise of this thread:
Gary Lieber at InsideEVs wrote:The rumors about the new Leaf not being able to endure multiple DCQC without excessive charge time slowdowns proved to be unfounded. During the trip, charging behaviors were no different from previous 2011 and 2014 Leafs. The most significant challenge is that a larger battery can mean longer charge times regardless of the charge rate. All BEVs throttle their charge rates as the battery fills up, but the 2018 Leaf’s charge profile does not seem any different from earlier generations. The challenge for all BEVs is that the larger the battery, the longer time it will take. As infrastructure and BEV charge rates increase, charging times will improve, but the laws of physics apply and the bigger the battery, the longer it will always take.



Did you do the math on that "normal" charge? 8-)



I think the takeaway from this article is that the drivers were fine with the length of time the trip took and whatever charging rates occurred during that trip. Their experience was positive, regardless of looking at the math. To them, the experience in their minds was normal.

I think many will echo this viewpoint and again feel that the new Leaf does work very well in this market space.

Yes, battery reliability is still somewhat of a question, however with Nissan's record of mass-market deliveries versus the amount of battery degradation cases being low, I'm still confident that this 40kWh pack will hold up for the vast majority of owners. Time will tell of course and since I'm getting my first EV in the new Leaf within a couple of weeks, I will be eagerly watching SoH with interest.
---------
New Leaf Owner: Just ordered Feb 24 2018, 2018 Leaf SL in Jade Frost. Expected ETA by May 30 2018.

Joe6pack
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:57 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 025854

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Thu May 03, 2018 9:46 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Joe6pack wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
More BS.
I know you are feeling stupid for buying a LEAF, but this Tesla FUD is not going to persuade anyone against the car and you are STILL stuck with your choice. What can I say -- sucks to be you.


I have never seen an enthusiast website where trolls (tried to think of a nicer word, but couldn't) are allowed to not only post with impunity, but are also allowed to moderate. sagebrush, Oils4AsphaltOnly and Evoforce among others would at least be told to to tone down the negativity and not continually provoke other members on a normal enthusiast site. I am sure this will fall on deaf ears as the foxes are guarding the henhouse here on MNL. I'm starting to wonder if this isn't all part of Tesla's marketing strategy. Tesla trolls seem to dominate most EV oriented websites.

I am pretty much done with this place. I don't have the time to waste continually arguing the same points over and over and there are better, more legitimate places to get information on the new LEAF and EVs in general.

The LEAF is a great car and all the vitrol from all the Tesla trolls in the world can't change that.


You think I'm a Troll?!?! That I need to tone down my negativity?!?!

I've been burned already with a faster degrading battery than my 24kwh leaf and now I'm seeing people being burned by unexpected QCFC behaviour. Maybe I am being too harsh with the 40kwh leaf's "issues", but Nissan, the company, needs to be taken to task for quietly introducing changes that negatively impacts their customers. Blind cheerleading does NOT help .

You have a 2012 leaf, and don't live near the southwest, so you probably have no idea how _betrayed_ some of us feel.

I have a tow-hitch and actively try to demonstrate how versatile and useful my leaf is to my immediate community. I even convinced a close buddy of mine to reserve the 40kwh leaf only to backtrack after finding out about the rapid 30kwh degradation. And this QCFC throttling makes me more reluctant to believe that Nissan has their battery pack management in order. Once more data comes in from 40kwh leaf owners, we'll be better able to assess whether or not Nissan's changes helped or harmed their new leaf.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed in the meantime.


Yes I do. So you bought or leased a 24 kWh LEAF and THEN turned around and bought or leased a 30 kWh LEAF and have been burned? How many battery pack replacements have you paid for? How many tax credits did you take? How exactly have you been burned? Now that you have a TM3 reservation the LEAF is crap. Notice the trend. Seriously, You, Sagebrush, Evoforce, EVDRIVER, etc. are the most anti-LEAF folks on this board and you all have Teslas either reserved or in you possession. Why not just move on? Why continue to drown out legitimate discussion with this endless spitefulness.
2012 Leaf SL leased October 4th, 2012
Braselton, GA

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Thu May 03, 2018 10:09 am

Joe6pack wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Joe6pack wrote:
I have never seen an enthusiast website where trolls (tried to think of a nicer word, but couldn't) are allowed to not only post with impunity, but are also allowed to moderate. sagebrush, Oils4AsphaltOnly and Evoforce among others would at least be told to to tone down the negativity and not continually provoke other members on a normal enthusiast site. I am sure this will fall on deaf ears as the foxes are guarding the henhouse here on MNL. I'm starting to wonder if this isn't all part of Tesla's marketing strategy. Tesla trolls seem to dominate most EV oriented websites.

I am pretty much done with this place. I don't have the time to waste continually arguing the same points over and over and there are better, more legitimate places to get information on the new LEAF and EVs in general.

The LEAF is a great car and all the vitrol from all the Tesla trolls in the world can't change that.


You think I'm a Troll?!?! That I need to tone down my negativity?!?!

I've been burned already with a faster degrading battery than my 24kwh leaf and now I'm seeing people being burned by unexpected QCFC behaviour. Maybe I am being too harsh with the 40kwh leaf's "issues", but Nissan, the company, needs to be taken to task for quietly introducing changes that negatively impacts their customers. Blind cheerleading does NOT help .

You have a 2012 leaf, and don't live near the southwest, so you probably have no idea how _betrayed_ some of us feel.

I have a tow-hitch and actively try to demonstrate how versatile and useful my leaf is to my immediate community. I even convinced a close buddy of mine to reserve the 40kwh leaf only to backtrack after finding out about the rapid 30kwh degradation. And this QCFC throttling makes me more reluctant to believe that Nissan has their battery pack management in order. Once more data comes in from 40kwh leaf owners, we'll be better able to assess whether or not Nissan's changes helped or harmed their new leaf.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed in the meantime.


Yes I do. So you bought or leased a 24 kWh LEAF and THEN turned around and bought or leased a 30 kWh LEAF and have been burned? How many battery pack replacements have you paid for? How many tax credits did you take? How exactly have you been burned? Now that you have a TM3 reservation the LEAF is crap. Notice the trend. Seriously, You, Sagebrush, Evoforce, EVDRIVER, etc. are the most anti-LEAF folks on this board and you all have Teslas either reserved or in you possession. Why not just move on? Why continue to drown out legitimate discussion with this endless spitefulness.


Because I used to advocate for the Leaf! Look at my early post history.

I've been burned, because I traded in my 24kwh leaf with a slowly degrading battery for a 30kwh leaf that has a whole different learning curve (80% charge limiter was taken away, because Nissan assured me that it had no impact on battery life). I've been burned, because I looked like a fool trying to convince people of how good the leaf was only to have to back track, because the new battery doesn't behave anything like the old one, and not in a good way. The warranty coverage won't kick in until the battery has degraded to somewhere south of 60% capacity because Nissan fiddled with the battery life indicator as well.

Again, you are on the thread about "possible widespread 2018 traction battery quick charge problems". I don't think I'm out of line here. I don't bring my issues with the leaf on the thread about wiring, or lease deals, or towing.

So get off my back and focus on the topic at hand!
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333

alozzy
Posts: 1104
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Thu May 03, 2018 10:18 am

You guys collectively lost the "topic at hand" about 10 pages ago...
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

SageBrush
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Thu May 03, 2018 5:55 pm

Joe6pack wrote: Why continue to drown out legitimate discussion ...

That is almost a legitimate question, or at least I can turn it into one:

Because your "legitimate discussion" is Tesla trolling
Because your "legitimate discussion" is LEAF misinformation
Because your "legitimate discussion" is a pathetic attempt to censor facts
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Return to “General / Main Owners Forum”