WetEV
Posts: 2320
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:45 pm

arnis wrote:Though we can be sure when that if it is 38*C outside, pack is higher than 38*C.


Oh? How do you know this?

I looked at my Leafspy logs for over the past 2 years, and filtered out the all of the measurements of 35C or more. The highest battery temperatures are 28C.

Continuing down, at 32C there are a few points of battery temperatures higher than ambient. They are the highest temperatures the battery has ever been, on a trip in multiple charges, both QCs and L2s. Peak temperature was 38.4C 08/10/2017 2nd longest day I've ever done. On a hot day, as well.

What I observe, and I'm clueless if this is just me or typical, is that the battery temperature is usually between the daily high and the daily low temperature in the summer. In the winter, the garage stays warmer than outside, and so does the battery.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

SageBrush
Posts: 2790
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:37 pm

For a 24 kWh LEAF, my experience is that pack temperature pretty closely tracks **average** daily ambient but we do not put big demands on the car, we try to keep it in the shade, and it does not cook in a closed garage in the summer.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=24351&p=501195#p501195
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

arnis
Posts: 900
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:48 pm

Battery pack follows ambient slowly, but after a drive,
pack is warmer than before the drive.
In winter, around 10 degrees. In summer, at least 5 degrees (celsius, not fahrenheit).
This applies to after "considerable ride" (at least 2/3 of battery capacity).
Aka expected DC charge after that.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:25 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:Pack Volts Pack Amps Pack T1 F Pack T2 F Pack T4 F
344.5 0 83.1 80.1 75
344.83 0 83.1 80.1 75
344.83 0.061 82.9 80.1 75
349.25 -85.082 82.9 79.9 75
351.36 -119.445 82.9 79.9 74.8



338.11 0 104 100 91.2
338 0 104 100 91.2
338.4 -0.03 104 100 91.2
338.3 0.061 104 100 91.2
338.4 0.122 104 100 91.2
341.57 -74.065 104 100 91.2
342.34 -77.453 104 100 91




348.48 0 111.2 106.7 97
348 0 111.2 106.7 97
348.67 0.061 110.7 106.2 96.4
349.73 -16.509 110.7 106.2 96.4
351.36 -68.023 110.7 106.2 96.4
351.84 -68.542 110.7 106.2 96.4


Here's the data for my 2016 leaf s30 (all numbers pulled from the Chademo station display):

** this data gathered at the minute interval
V in Volts : I in amps : Time (SOC %) since charging started.
337 : 60 : 2s (11%)
350 : 106 : 30s
351 : 106 : 60s
354 : 106 : 120s
357 : 106 : 180s (18%)
359 : 106 : 240s (22%)
361 : 106 : 300s (24%)
364 : 106 : 380s (29%)
366 : 106 : 480s (33%)
380 : 106 : 975s (60%)

** this data is from the same charging session but gathered at the Voltage interval.
V in Volts : I in amps : Time (SOC %) since charging started.
382 V : 106 : 1040s (62%)
383 V : 106 : 1088s (64%)
384 V : 106 : 1124s (66%)
385 V : 106 : 1162s (68%)
386 V : 106 : 1214s (70%)
387 V : 106 : 1253s (72%)
388 V : 106 : 1289s (74%)
389 V : 106 : 1342s (76%)
390 V : 106 : 1383s (78%)
391 V : 106 : 1432s (80%)
392 V : 106 : 1470s (82%)
393 V : 106 : 1506s (84%)
394 V : 106 : 1555s (86%)

Not sure how you're going to get battery resistance from these numbers, especially since the charge session seems to be current-limited.

Edit: The day was ~63 degrees F ambient, but I don't know what the actual battery temp was. Leaf Spy reported the same 63.7 F after the battery temp gauge had gone up from 5 bars to 7 bars. So I don't trust its temp reading.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13199
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:54 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:Pack Volts Pack Amps Pack T1 F Pack T2 F Pack T4 F
344.5 0 83.1 80.1 75
344.83 0 83.1 80.1 75
344.83 0.061 82.9 80.1 75
349.25 -85.082 82.9 79.9 75
351.36 -119.445 82.9 79.9 74.8



338.11 0 104 100 91.2
338 0 104 100 91.2
338.4 -0.03 104 100 91.2
338.3 0.061 104 100 91.2
338.4 0.122 104 100 91.2
341.57 -74.065 104 100 91.2
342.34 -77.453 104 100 91




348.48 0 111.2 106.7 97
348 0 111.2 106.7 97
348.67 0.061 110.7 106.2 96.4
349.73 -16.509 110.7 106.2 96.4
351.36 -68.023 110.7 106.2 96.4
351.84 -68.542 110.7 106.2 96.4


Here's the data for my 2016 leaf s30 (all numbers pulled from the Chademo station display):

** this data gathered at the minute interval
V in Volts : I in amps : Time (SOC %) since charging started.
337 : 60 : 2s (11%)
350 : 106 : 30s
351 : 106 : 60s
354 : 106 : 120s
357 : 106 : 180s (18%)
359 : 106 : 240s (22%)
361 : 106 : 300s (24%)
364 : 106 : 380s (29%)
366 : 106 : 480s (33%)
380 : 106 : 975s (60%)

** this data is from the same charging session but gathered at the Voltage interval.
V in Volts : I in amps : Time (SOC %) since charging started.
382 V : 106 : 1040s (62%)
383 V : 106 : 1088s (64%)
384 V : 106 : 1124s (66%)
385 V : 106 : 1162s (68%)
386 V : 106 : 1214s (70%)
387 V : 106 : 1253s (72%)
388 V : 106 : 1289s (74%)
389 V : 106 : 1342s (76%)
390 V : 106 : 1383s (78%)
391 V : 106 : 1432s (80%)
392 V : 106 : 1470s (82%)
393 V : 106 : 1506s (84%)
394 V : 106 : 1555s (86%)

Not sure how you're going to get battery resistance from these numbers, especially since the charge session seems to be current-limited.

Edit: The day was ~63 degrees F ambient, but I don't know what the actual battery temp was. Leaf Spy reported the same 63.7 F after the battery temp gauge had gone up from 5 bars to 7 bars. So I don't trust its temp reading.



sounds like you are looking at ambient temp on LS.

Batt temps comes in triplicate.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:48 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
sounds like you are looking at ambient temp on LS.

Batt temps comes in triplicate.


So here's the thing, the 3 bar graph (T1, T2, T4) on the second tab of Leaf Spy, also only showed between 61F - 63.7F. Did my sensors get moved somehow?!
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333

lorenfb
Posts: 1835
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:23 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
** this data gathered at the minute interval
V in Volts : I in amps : Time (SOC %) since charging started.
337 : 60 : 2s (11%)
350 : 106 : 30s

Not sure how you're going to get battery resistance from these numbers, especially since the charge session seems to be current-limited.

Edit: The day was ~63 degrees F ambient, but I don't know what the actual battery temp was. Leaf Spy reported the same 63.7 F after the battery temp gauge had gone up from 5 bars to 7 bars. So I don't trust its temp reading.


The key data for calculation of battery resistance need to be gathered at the immediate start of the charging session.

Example:

1. Obtain the battery voltage before the QC session starts from LeafSpy or at the moment the QC voltage number appears from the charger
before the current begins;
example - 337 volts
2. The battery voltage and QC current the moment the actual charging current begins;
example - 350 volts, 106 amps
3. Calculate the resistance;
(350 - 337) / 106 = .122 ohms or 122 mohms

We can't use those values because the battery had about 30 seconds of charging which skews the voltage change. If the battery voltage
had been obtained, e.g. 330, before the QC current began, then using some of the data from above;

Example:
(337 - 330) / 60 = .117 ohms or 117 mohms

Thanks for what you obtained. Next time will do the trick.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:33 am

lorenfb wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
** this data gathered at the minute interval
V in Volts : I in amps : Time (SOC %) since charging started.
337 : 60 : 2s (11%)
350 : 106 : 30s

Not sure how you're going to get battery resistance from these numbers, especially since the charge session seems to be current-limited.

Edit: The day was ~63 degrees F ambient, but I don't know what the actual battery temp was. Leaf Spy reported the same 63.7 F after the battery temp gauge had gone up from 5 bars to 7 bars. So I don't trust its temp reading.


The key data for calculation of battery resistance needs to be gathered at the immediate start of the charging session.

Example:

1. Obtain the battery voltage before the QC session starts from LeafSpy or at the moment the QC voltage number appears from the charger
before the current begins;
example - 337 volts
2. The battery voltage and QC current the moment the actual charging current begins;
example - 350 volts, 106 amps
3. Calculate the resistance;
(350 - 337) / 106 = .122 ohms or 122 mohms

We can't use those values because the battery had about 30 seconds of charging which skews the voltage change. If the battery voltage
had been obtained, e.g. 330, before the QC current began, then using some of the data from above;

Example:
(337 - 330) / 60 = .117 ohms or 117 mohms


Ah! I did record it, but forgot to report it! V0 = 338.30V

And I didn't read my own scribbles correctly. That was a 339, not 337.

But even so, that first number (V1) wasn't exactly the very first number either. So either way, my data's junk.

Just found a new chademo station closer to where I live, so will try this again and hope to get better results.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333

lorenfb
Posts: 1835
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:41 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
** this data gathered at the minute interval
V in Volts : I in amps : Time (SOC %) since charging started.
337 : 60 : 2s (11%)
350 : 106 : 30s

Not sure how you're going to get battery resistance from these numbers, especially since the charge session seems to be current-limited.

Edit: The day was ~63 degrees F ambient, but I don't know what the actual battery temp was. Leaf Spy reported the same 63.7 F after the battery temp gauge had gone up from 5 bars to 7 bars. So I don't trust its temp reading.


The key data for calculation of battery resistance needs to be gathered at the immediate start of the charging session.

Example:

1. Obtain the battery voltage before the QC session starts from LeafSpy or at the moment the QC voltage number appears from the charger
before the current begins;
example - 337 volts
2. The battery voltage and QC current the moment the actual charging current begins;
example - 350 volts, 106 amps
3. Calculate the resistance;
(350 - 337) / 106 = .122 ohms or 122 mohms

We can't use those values because the battery had about 30 seconds of charging which skews the voltage change. If the battery voltage
had been obtained, e.g. 330, before the QC current began, then using some of the data from above;

Example:
(337 - 330) / 60 = .117 ohms or 117 mohms


Ah! I did record it, but forgot to report it! V0 = 338.30V

And I didn't read my own scribbles correctly. That was a 339, not 337.

But even so, that first number (V1) wasn't exactly the very first number either. So either way, my data's junk.

Just found a new chademo station closer to where I live, so will try this again and hope to get better results.


The most accurate method is to just use LeafSpy for all three data points; V0 - before the charge starts, V1 - the voltage when
the charging current begins, I1 - the peak charging current (probably 100 amps) at the start, all within a few seconds.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

cwerdna
Posts: 8206
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:51 am

WetEV wrote:
arnis wrote:Though we can be sure when that if it is 38*C outside, pack is higher than 38*C.


Oh? How do you know this?

I looked at my Leafspy logs for over the past 2 years, and filtered out the all of the measurements of 35C or more. The highest battery temperatures are 28C.

Continuing down, at 32C there are a few points of battery temperatures higher than ambient. They are the highest temperatures the battery has ever been, on a trip in multiple charges, both QCs and L2s. Peak temperature was 38.4C 08/10/2017 2nd longest day I've ever done. On a hot day, as well.

What I observe, and I'm clueless if this is just me or typical, is that the battery temperature is usually between the daily high and the daily low temperature in the summer. In the winter, the garage stays warmer than outside, and so does the battery.

You live in a mild climate (I lived in King County for about 9 years myself).

https://web.archive.org/web/20170717073 ... hp?t=22134 had his (presumably '13) battery up to 137 F or or 58.3 C.

My current Leaf has no CHAdeMO, but on hot summer days on weekends, I sometimes cannot avoid my battery reaching past 90 F (~32.2 C) without even charging.

if OAT is at 38 C and the pack has adapted to that temp, even L2 charging will raise it a few degrees.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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