LeftieBiker
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Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:26 am

I'd rather not pay for active cooling, my battery life isn't improved by active cooling, and I'd rather not have a battery pack that catches fire like a T esla.


Do you believe that it's the cooling system that causes the Tesla fires? Do you think that if Nissan added a TMS to the Leaf pack, that it would then be prone to catching fire?
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Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:24 pm

WetEV wrote:
SageBrush wrote:I understand your argument but there is no good reason to think it will apply here. Just look at the histogram shape.


My car is not on that chart. And when it gets put on that chart, I'm already past 40k miles. As is a co-worker's Leaf, a 2013 SV with almost 60k miles.

A TMS would not increase my battery life. My battery stays too cool almost all the time for active cooling to do anything.

As the co-worker doesn't QC, I suspect active cooling would do exactly nothing for his battery life. Yes, he has the option to do so, but has done so exactly once. Mostly just to try it out.

I'd rather not pay for active cooling, my battery life isn't improved by active cooling, and I'd rather not have a battery pack that catches fire like a T esla.


That's a strawman argument. Active cooling doesn't mean actively cooling 100% of the time. During QC, when temps can reach well above 100F, active cooling helps and is only really needed for long enough to bring the temps to ambient. When parked, why would the TMS turn on if the battery's at ambient temps? Even in AZ, it's not above 100F the entire day.

Then there's the added benefit of a warmed battery while charging that gives you more usable range. If temps drop below freezing, the battery isn't going to degrade from that, just have less usable range for the day. Much more preferable to a permanently capped range.
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WetEV
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Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:54 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
WetEV wrote:A TMS would not increase my battery life. My battery stays too cool almost all the time for active cooling to do anything.

As the co-worker doesn't QC, I suspect active cooling would do exactly nothing for his battery life. Yes, he has the option to do so, but has done so exactly once. Mostly just to try it out.

I'd rather not pay for active cooling, my battery life isn't improved by active cooling, and I'd rather not have a battery pack that catches fire like a T esla.


That's a strawman argument. Active cooling doesn't mean actively cooling 100% of the time. During QC, when temps can reach well above 100F, active cooling helps and is only really needed for long enough to bring the temps to ambient.


In exactly one of the 64+ QCs to date, temperatures exceeded 100F. All the way to 101.1F or 38.4C. I don't want to pay for hardware that will almost never get used. I know that I never exceeded 100F with my 2012, but I don't have a count of QCs for my 2012.

Perhaps it is different were you live. I don't see any utility for me from active cooling.
WetEV
#49
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Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:40 pm

WetEV wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
WetEV wrote:A TMS would not increase my battery life. My battery stays too cool almost all the time for active cooling to do anything.

As the co-worker doesn't QC, I suspect active cooling would do exactly nothing for his battery life. Yes, he has the option to do so, but has done so exactly once. Mostly just to try it out.

I'd rather not pay for active cooling, my battery life isn't improved by active cooling, and I'd rather not have a battery pack that catches fire like a T esla.


That's a strawman argument. Active cooling doesn't mean actively cooling 100% of the time. During QC, when temps can reach well above 100F, active cooling helps and is only really needed for long enough to bring the temps to ambient.


In exactly one of the 64+ QCs to date, temperatures exceeded 100F. All the way to 101.1F or 38.4C. I don't want to pay for hardware that will almost never get used. I know that I never exceeded 100F with my 2012, but I don't have a count of QCs for my 2012.

Perhaps it is different were you live. I don't see any utility for me from active cooling.


Do you pay for AC for your car? Did I pay for heat for mine? Just because it might not be used [Edit: "as in used by you"], doesn't mean it's useless.
Last edited by Oils4AsphaultOnly on Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333

arnis
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Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:10 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote: Just because it might not be used, doesn't mean it's useless.


AFAIK, this is exactly what useless means.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:45 pm

arnis wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote: Just because it might not be used, doesn't mean it's useless.


AFAIK, this is exactly what useless means.


No, that isn't what it means. "Useless" means "Of no use (to anyone)."
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WetEV
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Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:38 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
WetEV wrote:In exactly one of the 64+ QCs to date, temperatures exceeded 100F. All the way to 101.1F or 38.4C. I don't want to pay for hardware that will almost never get used. I know that I never exceeded 100F with my 2012, but I don't have a count of QCs for my 2012.

Perhaps it is different were you live. I don't see any utility for me from active cooling.


Do you pay for AC for your car? Did I pay for heat for mine? Just because it might not be used [Edit: "as in used by you"], doesn't mean it's useless.


I'm old enough that I've bought two cars with no AC. It used to be an option...But the take rate rose with time, until it was cheaper to just make all cars with it.

So what would the take rate be if active cooling was an option?

I'd guess fairly low locally, and might not be very large in moderate climates, most of the USA. Fairly high in Arizona and the rest of the Southern USA. 20% active cooling? 80% active cooling? Hard to say, as might depend on lots things not known. Less on small battery cars, more on larger battery cars. The gain is larger, the larger the battery, and the cost is similar. Also small battery cars are more likely to be commuter cars, where QC isn't common, than performance cars, where multiple QCs per day at high power is a bragging point, if not more common.

Active cooling isn't just extra cost, and isn't just reducing reliability, but also may be reducing battery life in cool places. That is worse than useless.
WetEV
#49
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:26 am

WetEV wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
WetEV wrote:In exactly one of the 64+ QCs to date, temperatures exceeded 100F. All the way to 101.1F or 38.4C. I don't want to pay for hardware that will almost never get used. I know that I never exceeded 100F with my 2012, but I don't have a count of QCs for my 2012.

Perhaps it is different were you live. I don't see any utility for me from active cooling.


Do you pay for AC for your car? Did I pay for heat for mine? Just because it might not be used [Edit: "as in used by you"], doesn't mean it's useless.


I'm old enough that I've bought two cars with no AC. It used to be an option...But the take rate rose with time, until it was cheaper to just make all cars with it.

So what would the take rate be if active cooling was an option?

I'd guess fairly low locally, and might not be very large in moderate climates, most of the USA. Fairly high in Arizona and the rest of the Southern USA. 20% active cooling? 80% active cooling? Hard to say, as might depend on lots things not known. Less on small battery cars, more on larger battery cars. The gain is larger, the larger the battery, and the cost is similar. Also small battery cars are more likely to be commuter cars, where QC isn't common, than performance cars, where multiple QCs per day at high power is a bragging point, if not more common.

Active cooling isn't just extra cost, and isn't just reducing reliability, but also may be reducing battery life in cool places. That is worse than useless.


Warming has increased the need for AC. I used it briefly last week and the temps were in the mid 60's but the solar effects made it very uncomfortable in the car. In town it was ok to roll around with windows down but on the freeway, it was A/C...

One that has not been mentioned here is that Nissan picked one of the worst chemistries for heat tolerance. Now that formula has been tweaked constantly but the results do not appear to be trending consistently... to say the least
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WetEV
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Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:52 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:One that has not been mentioned here is that Nissan picked one of the worst chemistries for heat tolerance. Now that formula has been tweaked constantly but the results do not appear to be trending consistently... to say the least


Yes. One of the worst for heat tolerance, but also one of the best for safety. No battery pack fires, unlike T esla.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:56 am

WetEV wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:One that has not been mentioned here is that Nissan picked one of the worst chemistries for heat tolerance. Now that formula has been tweaked constantly but the results do not appear to be trending consistently... to say the least


Yes. One of the worst for heat tolerance, but also one of the best for safety. No battery pack fires, unlike T esla.


Nissan didn't have to change the chemistry, they just had to make the passive cooling as effective (preferably more effective) as it is in the 24kwh packs. Instead they appear to have made it LESS effective.
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