rjcool
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 5:18 am
Delivery Date: 18 May 2018

Dryer Outlet Usage for 2018 Nissan Leaf

Fri May 18, 2018 5:48 am

Good Morning All,

We live in Ontario, Canada and just recently bought a 2018 Nissan Leaf SV (well its currently on order - not sure when we will get it) and currently thinking of how we are going to charge it. Sales person said that we don't need to install the power station anymore and all we need is a 240 Volt outlet (dryer outlet?) to plug in the cable. He also mentioned that a 30 or 40 amp will suffice.

Couple of things that I was wondering about

1. I looked at the manual and as per diagram it says 240 v and 50 amps - Do we really need a 50 amp on the breaker or a 30 will suffice? I imagine 50 amps will draw much more power but if I am only adding few hours of charging with a 30 amp, I will be ok with that (or is there another disadvantage or danger for the car?)
2. It comes with an adapter so I can just plug it in to a regular outlet (trickle charge). Will this be really bad if I just use this? Or am I just tripling my charging time?
3. Do I really need a NEW outlet in my garage? Our laundry room is just beside the garage that is just separated by a door. Is it possible to just use the existing dryer outlet in the laundry room? It will be about less than 10 feet away from where the car (actual charging port) will be. I can just alternate between the two and just plug in whatever is needed.
4. I am a little bit of a handyman (not electrician though) and I can make a hole on the drywall for the charging cord. However, I am thinking of using a 240 volt extension. Is this ok?

Some other info that might be important
1. We have a newly built house - we just moved in about 8 months ago
2. Our breaker/panel is 100 amp
3. The amp for dryer is 30
4. Theres a dryer that is currently plugged into the outlet and is working perfectly. As per the dryer's actual plug, it is a 30A 250V~

Thanks.

specialgreen
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:21 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Mar 2017
Location: Minnesota

Re: Dryer Outlet Usage for 2018 Nissan Leaf

Fri May 18, 2018 7:41 am

First, you definitely can't charge the leaf and run your dryer at the same time.

The Leaf can charge at 6.6 kw (6600 watts / 240 volts = 27.5 amps, or 91.67% of your 30A circuit). 92% load will not pop your breaker (unless something else is wrong, like poor workmanship connecting the wiring at the panel or receptacle). In Canada, 92% is considered safe if used for 3 or fewer hours per 6 hour period (and many Canadian electricians just say "50% of the time or less"). So, depending on your electrician, you may be told that it is OK, or not OK.

However, it's also unlikely that the Leaf EVSE will plug-in directly to the outlet, because the EVSE probably has a 50-amp plug, and the receptacle is 30 amp. The safest course is to ask an electrician what it would take to upgrade the outlet to match the plug on your EVSE (though that could be a problem for your dryer).

If that is cost-prohibitive, another possibility is to buy a different EVSE, which will plug into your existing dryer outlet as-is. You could get a 24A EVSE which does plug into your 30A outlet. 16A 240v EVSEs are also widely available and cost-effective. You could probably even find someone here on the forum who would trade a 24A or 16A EVSE for yours.

Charging at 16 amps should add about 24km of driving range per hour charging; 24A should add 32km; and the full 27.5A would add about 37km. So there's actually not that much improvement, going from 24A (which could use a 30 amp plug) to 27.5A. I wish Nissan had programmed the EVSE to limit charge to 24A. I think the added convenience (having a 30A plug) would outweigh the 15% decrease in charging speed.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13270
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Dryer Outlet Usage for 2018 Nissan Leaf

Fri May 18, 2018 8:10 am

rjcool wrote:Good Morning All,

We live in Ontario, Canada and just recently bought a 2018 Nissan Leaf SV (well its currently on order - not sure when we will get it) and currently thinking of how we are going to charge it. Sales person said that we don't need to install the power station anymore and all we need is a 240 Volt outlet (dryer outlet?) to plug in the cable. He also mentioned that a 30 or 40 amp will suffice.

Couple of things that I was wondering about

1. I looked at the manual and as per diagram it says 240 v and 50 amps - Do we really need a 50 amp on the breaker or a 30 will suffice? I imagine 50 amps will draw much more power but if I am only adding few hours of charging with a 30 amp, I will be ok with that (or is there another disadvantage or danger for the car?)
2. It comes with an adapter so I can just plug it in to a regular outlet (trickle charge). Will this be really bad if I just use this? Or am I just tripling my charging time?
3. Do I really need a NEW outlet in my garage? Our laundry room is just beside the garage that is just separated by a door. Is it possible to just use the existing dryer outlet in the laundry room? It will be about less than 10 feet away from where the car (actual charging port) will be. I can just alternate between the two and just plug in whatever is needed.
4. I am a little bit of a handyman (not electrician though) and I can make a hole on the drywall for the charging cord. However, I am thinking of using a 240 volt extension. Is this ok?

Some other info that might be important
1. We have a newly built house - we just moved in about 8 months ago
2. Our breaker/panel is 100 amp
3. The amp for dryer is 30
4. Theres a dryer that is currently plugged into the outlet and is working perfectly. As per the dryer's actual plug, it is a 30A 250V~

Thanks.



100 amp Breaker in new construction is... shocking. FYI; your LEAF won't charge "much" faster. Assuming proper line voltage the difference is quite small. You could get an adapter for the EVSE or build a pigtail that has two sockets so you don't have to switch plugs back and forth between the car and dryer. Just don't run both at the same time.

The socket you have is not designed to be plugged in that much so it will wear out and likely soon.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rjcool
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 5:18 am
Delivery Date: 18 May 2018

Re: Dryer Outlet Usage for 2018 Nissan Leaf

Fri May 18, 2018 8:23 am

Thank you for the response.

Definitely I wont be running the dryer and charging at the same time :)

I am still a little bit confused as to why the sales person will say 30amps and 40amps will suffice when I can see in the manual that it's 50 amps. Is the charger itself rated at 30amps and Nissan is recommending a 50 amp breaker to prevent the load issue? Also, is there no way of setting the drawing power of the charger?

Regarding the plug, I believe you are right, the dryer (currently plugged in) has a nema 14-30. The picture that the sales man sent me was definitely a nema 14-50.

I think your suggestion about getting a different EVSE is my best bet. Do you have any recommendation? I looked at amazon.ca and most of them are 16a.

Thanks again for your help.

specialgreen wrote:First, you definitely can't charge the leaf and run your dryer at the same time.

The Leaf can charge at 6.6 kw (6600 watts / 240 volts = 27.5 amps, or 91.67% of your 30A circuit). 92% load will not pop your breaker (unless something else is wrong, like poor workmanship connecting the wiring at the panel or receptacle). In Canada, 92% is considered safe if used for 3 or fewer hours per 6 hour period (and many Canadian electricians just say "50% of the time or less"). So, depending on your electrician, you may be told that it is OK, or not OK.

However, it's also unlikely that the Leaf EVSE will plug-in directly to the outlet, because the EVSE probably has a 50-amp plug, and the receptacle is 30 amp. The safest course is to ask an electrician what it would take to upgrade the outlet to match the plug on your EVSE (though that could be a problem for your dryer).

If that is cost-prohibitive, another possibility is to buy a different EVSE, which will plug into your existing dryer outlet as-is. You could get a 24A EVSE which does plug into your outlet. 16A 240v EVSEs are also widely available and cost-effective.

Charging at 16 amps should add about 24km of driving range per hour charging; 24A should add 32km; and the full 27.5A would add about 37km. So there's actually not that much improvement, going from 24A (which could use a 30 amp plug) to 27.5A. I wish Nissan had programmed the EVSE to limit charge to 24A. I think the added convenience (having a 30A plug) would outweigh the 15% decrease in charging speed.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13270
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Dryer Outlet Usage for 2018 Nissan Leaf

Fri May 18, 2018 8:36 am

rjcool wrote:Thank you for the response.

Definitely I wont be running the dryer and charging at the same time :)

I am still a little bit confused as to why the sales person will say 30amps and 40amps will suffice when I can see in the manual that it's 50 amps. Is the charger itself rated at 30amps and Nissan is recommending a 50 amp breaker to prevent the load issue? Also, is there no way of setting the drawing power of the charger?

Regarding the plug, I believe you are right, the dryer (currently plugged in) has a nema 14-30. The picture that the sales man sent me was definitely a nema 14-50.

I think your suggestion about getting a different EVSE is my best bet. Do you have any recommendation? I looked at amazon.ca and most of them are 16a.

Thanks again for your help.

specialgreen wrote:First, you definitely can't charge the leaf and run your dryer at the same time.

The Leaf can charge at 6.6 kw (6600 watts / 240 volts = 27.5 amps, or 91.67% of your 30A circuit). 92% load will not pop your breaker (unless something else is wrong, like poor workmanship connecting the wiring at the panel or receptacle). In Canada, 92% is considered safe if used for 3 or fewer hours per 6 hour period (and many Canadian electricians just say "50% of the time or less"). So, depending on your electrician, you may be told that it is OK, or not OK.

However, it's also unlikely that the Leaf EVSE will plug-in directly to the outlet, because the EVSE probably has a 50-amp plug, and the receptacle is 30 amp. The safest course is to ask an electrician what it would take to upgrade the outlet to match the plug on your EVSE (though that could be a problem for your dryer).

If that is cost-prohibitive, another possibility is to buy a different EVSE, which will plug into your existing dryer outlet as-is. You could get a 24A EVSE which does plug into your outlet. 16A 240v EVSEs are also widely available and cost-effective.

Charging at 16 amps should add about 24km of driving range per hour charging; 24A should add 32km; and the full 27.5A would add about 37km. So there's actually not that much improvement, going from 24A (which could use a 30 amp plug) to 27.5A. I wish Nissan had programmed the EVSE to limit charge to 24A. I think the added convenience (having a 30A plug) would outweigh the 15% decrease in charging speed.


Can you get a 40 amp breaker?

I am frankly more confused as to why you think a car salesman knows what they are talking about? :)
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rjcool
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 5:18 am
Delivery Date: 18 May 2018

Re: Dryer Outlet Usage for 2018 Nissan Leaf

Fri May 18, 2018 8:46 am

Hahahaha - that is so true.

I can get a 40 amp breaker but will need a technician to install it which will cost me an arm and a leg.

There was an electrician here yesterday and gave me a quote of close to $1k to install the plug in the garage and run cable all the way to the basement.

Is something like this ok? https://www.amazon.ca/Charger-Portable- ... NEMA+14-30

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
rjcool wrote:Thank you for the response.

Definitely I wont be running the dryer and charging at the same time :)

I am still a little bit confused as to why the sales person will say 30amps and 40amps will suffice when I can see in the manual that it's 50 amps. Is the charger itself rated at 30amps and Nissan is recommending a 50 amp breaker to prevent the load issue? Also, is there no way of setting the drawing power of the charger?

Regarding the plug, I believe you are right, the dryer (currently plugged in) has a nema 14-30. The picture that the sales man sent me was definitely a nema 14-50.

I think your suggestion about getting a different EVSE is my best bet. Do you have any recommendation? I looked at amazon.ca and most of them are 16a.

Thanks again for your help.

specialgreen wrote:First, you definitely can't charge the leaf and run your dryer at the same time.

The Leaf can charge at 6.6 kw (6600 watts / 240 volts = 27.5 amps, or 91.67% of your 30A circuit). 92% load will not pop your breaker (unless something else is wrong, like poor workmanship connecting the wiring at the panel or receptacle). In Canada, 92% is considered safe if used for 3 or fewer hours per 6 hour period (and many Canadian electricians just say "50% of the time or less"). So, depending on your electrician, you may be told that it is OK, or not OK.

However, it's also unlikely that the Leaf EVSE will plug-in directly to the outlet, because the EVSE probably has a 50-amp plug, and the receptacle is 30 amp. The safest course is to ask an electrician what it would take to upgrade the outlet to match the plug on your EVSE (though that could be a problem for your dryer).

If that is cost-prohibitive, another possibility is to buy a different EVSE, which will plug into your existing dryer outlet as-is. You could get a 24A EVSE which does plug into your outlet. 16A 240v EVSEs are also widely available and cost-effective.

Charging at 16 amps should add about 24km of driving range per hour charging; 24A should add 32km; and the full 27.5A would add about 37km. So there's actually not that much improvement, going from 24A (which could use a 30 amp plug) to 27.5A. I wish Nissan had programmed the EVSE to limit charge to 24A. I think the added convenience (having a 30A plug) would outweigh the 15% decrease in charging speed.


Can you get a 40 amp breaker?

I am frankly more confused as to why you think a car salesman knows what they are talking about? :)

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13270
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Dryer Outlet Usage for 2018 Nissan Leaf

Fri May 18, 2018 9:23 am

rjcool wrote:Hahahaha - that is so true.

I can get a 40 amp breaker but will need a technician to install it which will cost me an arm and a leg.

There was an electrician here yesterday and gave me a quote of close to $1k to install the plug in the garage and run cable all the way to the basement.

Is something like this ok? https://www.amazon.ca/Charger-Portable- ... NEMA+14-30

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
rjcool wrote:Thank you for the response.

Definitely I wont be running the dryer and charging at the same time :)

I am still a little bit confused as to why the sales person will say 30amps and 40amps will suffice when I can see in the manual that it's 50 amps. Is the charger itself rated at 30amps and Nissan is recommending a 50 amp breaker to prevent the load issue? Also, is there no way of setting the drawing power of the charger?

Regarding the plug, I believe you are right, the dryer (currently plugged in) has a nema 14-30. The picture that the sales man sent me was definitely a nema 14-50.

I think your suggestion about getting a different EVSE is my best bet. Do you have any recommendation? I looked at amazon.ca and most of them are 16a.

Thanks again for your help.



Can you get a 40 amp breaker?

I am frankly more confused as to why you think a car salesman knows what they are talking about? :)


If it were me, I would "suffer" with the slower charging speed. Paying anything significant for faster charging is something I would not consider.

My realities; Eventually I will have an EV with a much larger battery so I should "future proof" my expenditures now, right? Well, no. I have a dryer plug also (installed since my dryer is inside house) and run a 24 amp EVSE so I am getting 5.76 KW from it or an effective 5.2 KW roughly which means I am good for an EV pack up to 65 Kwh based on a 12 hour charge time

The other thing is the above charge to full full for a planned trip would happen infrequently but also would hardly be a thing since it would NEVER happen two days in a row.

Finally, I would spring a Tenner for a QC over sweating about the small stuff. ;)
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

alozzy
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Dryer Outlet Usage for 2018 Nissan Leaf

Fri May 18, 2018 10:43 am

You can absolutely use your existing dryer receptacle, provided it is NEMA 14-30R, but I would not use the stock EVSE as you can't dial down the amperage draw. Your LEAF's OBC will draw 27.5 A, which is too high for continuous use on a 30A circuit.

I use a Zencar 32A portable EVSE, which has multiple amperage set points and can charge using either 120V or 240V supplies too. I use it to charge my LEAF almost nightly (set to a 24A amperage draw) and have had zero issues with it. I also use it when we go camping, as many RV sites have TT-30 (120V@30A) and NEMA 14-50R supplies and worse case I can also charge using a 120V receptacle too. I paid $300 for the Zencar, shipped directly to my door.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

alozzy
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Dryer Outlet Usage for 2018 Nissan Leaf

Fri May 18, 2018 10:49 am

I should have added that, at a 24A draw, the Zencar charges my LEAF at a rate of (240V x 24A) 5.8 kW, so it's charging only 13% slower than the full charging rate. So, instead of 5 hours to charge your LEAF from a very low battery state to over 80% SOC, it will take almost 6 hours.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

specialgreen
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:21 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Mar 2017
Location: Minnesota

Re: Dryer Outlet Usage for 2018 Nissan Leaf

Fri May 18, 2018 11:02 am

One thing I forgot to ask: Is your dryer outlet a 10-30R or 14-30R? (you may need to do image search to see what these look like). The Leaf EVSE is 14-50, and it may not work without a neutral wire. If your branch circuit to your dryer has no neutral wire, then that may mean you can't use the Leaf EVSE at all (I don't know. It's possible that Nissan's EVSE has a neutral pin but doesn't use it).

As Dave mentioned, it is possible to plug-in the 50A plug into a 30A receptacle, using a "cheater cord" like this:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/AC-WORKS-EV ... /301768722

This would pull 27.5 amps, which should make your circuit run hot, but not pop the breaker. Running over 80% load is not permitted by American electricians, but is often permitted by Canadian electricians if the load is applied is less than 50% of the time. But using that cheater cord is a no-no even in Canada, so you'd need to unplug and hide it during any inspections. Using a 16A EVSE (like AmazingE) would avoid that.

You could also use a 32A or 40A EVSE which can be configured to only pull 24A
- OpenEVSE $600USD
- Clipper Creek $535USD
- Juicebox $500USD eBay
- Zencar 32A, $500USD eBay
- GE Wattstation 32A $500 eBay
- Siemens VersiCharge $430USD HomeDepot
- GE Durastation 32A $350 eBay

Those would still need an adapter/cheater cable (or you could just cut the plug off and use 14-30). So: yes, they're safe to plug into a 30A circuit; but no, you still have to hide the cheater cable.

> 3. Do I really need a NEW outlet in my garage? Our laundry room is just beside the garage ...and I can make a hole on the drywall for the charging cord

Making holes from the house into an attached garage is probably a bigger fire code issue than using a 50A/30A cheater cable. With the cheater cable, you still have branch circuit overload protection. Sadly, fires don't have a "circuit breaker." So the whole "use a Y-cable from the dryer outlet" approach is probably not going to work... maybe unless you can run the cord under the door into the garage (no holes in walls). If an inspector sees a hole from garage to house, that's a big red flag, and it's not something you can just unplug and seal-up right before they come over.

If the dryer outlet in the laundry room _does_ have a neutral, then what I would do is extend that circuit to a new 30A outlet box in the garage (or ask an electrician to do that). The outlet box in the laundry room probably has black, white, green/neutral and bare/ground wires from the branch circuit, screwed directly onto the dryer receptacle. You'd pick a spot on the wall in the garage (opposite the laundry room; preferably near the laundry room receptacle). Cut a very small hole in the sheetrock from the garage side (like 1.5cm). Then feed-in some NM-B 10/3 Romex from the garage, into the wall.

Then go to the laundry room and cut larger holes, as-needed, to feed that Romex to the laundry room outlet box. Getting the new wire in through the back of the laundry room outlet box will be easier if you can pull the box 5cm out of the wall. You're adding four wire-nuts in the box, so check CEC 12-3034 if you may need a bigger outlet box in the laundry room (wirecount=10; in the US, you'd upgrade from a 4" square box to 4.25"). Be sure to fasten the Romex to a stud within 10cm of the outlet box in the laundry room, and within 10cm of the hole into the garage. Seal the (small) hole in the garage wall with 3M Fire Barrier caulk.


Your local code may add other complications: there may be a local requirement that electric dryers have their own breaker, so you may need to unplug the EVSE before an inspector visits (if anybody asks, the garage outlet is the "old dryer" location, and no-longer in use). There may also be a local requirement that outlets in attached garages have ground-fault protection. And unlike USA's NEC, every province in Canada has many amendments to the CEC.

If you don't need a portable EVSE, then you could also hard-wire the EVSE into the new J-box in the garage. This could save you $80 (30A receptacle + 50A/30A cheater cable), and may avoid some requirements (like ground-fault protection), but could cause other problems (like if you have a code requirement for a dedicated branch circuit for the dryer).

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