SageBrush
Posts: 2795
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Fri May 25, 2018 8:34 am

powersurge wrote:If I am to believe this new $8500 battery price, then they are doing the same business model as the cordless drill business. Their batteries only last a few years. When you want to buy new batteries, they cost $110 each, while NEW drills with the batteries are only $200.

HOWEVER... With such a large base of Leaf owners, I cannot imagine that the cells in the battery pack are so exclusive that only Nissan can provide them. I am SURE that other companies make the same battery cells, and a company can find a way to replace the cells in the original battery pack.... Not requiring any other new tech to make the pack compatible to the car...

Are you expecting to do the cell replacement yourself, or at least remove the pack from the car and pay for shipping both ways to the cell vendor ?

It is an idea dead from the outset. No 3rd party is going to try it.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Lothsahn
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Fri May 25, 2018 9:02 am

cwerdna wrote:If this turns out to be true, not a temporary snafu and the price for a new 24 kWh battery for the near to medium term and there's no ~$2850 10+ "refurbished" battery for the US, this is VERY bad news. :(

Very few people will want to fork over this kind of $ on a car that has little value by the time the driver wants a replacement. If it were a 30 or 40 kWh battery, the % of folks willing to pay this price would go up.

Nissan did claim at the time of the $5499 announcement (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&p=374490) that they were losing money (subventing): https://insideevs.com/nissan-says-leaf- ... ney-loser/.

Perhaps now that AESC (NEC and Nissan JV) has been sold to a Chinese company, they're getting stiffed or that Chinese company at least wants some profit? Maybe Nissan's tired of making $0 or losing $?

One would've figured that the per kWh cost should've come down in an almost 4 year time span...



Although I have no inside knowledge, I strongly suspect this is the reason. I expect the cost to Nissan of those batteries has gone up now that they no longer own and control the company, and they're passing those costs on to the consumer.

If this is the case, the real answer is to update the BMS and pack to a battery chemistry that's significantly cheaper (such as LG), but whether Nissan cares to do that investment for customer loyalty is anyone's guess. I'm guessing they probably will not do this.

Honestly, if they just removed the dealer-only lockout and documented what the BMS needs to do so that anyone could match a BMS & battery to the car, that would encourage a third party to get involved in this--and benefit both parties. If Nissan truly has no desire to be involved in the battery replacement business, making it as easy as possible for 3rd parties to provide replacement batteries would be a win/win for them, the 3rd party, and Nissan Leaf owners.

Nissan: Take note. Actions like these are why Tesla's resale value of used cars is extremely high and you basically have to give away Leaf's, even though the Leafs are more reliable cars (according to CR). Teslas have long-lived battery packs, over the air updates, and a constant focus on making their cars better--not just the new cars, but existing ones.

My Nissan Leaf is permanently stuck with a fixed 24 kWh pack that is getting more (not less) expensive over time, a nag screen that appears every time I start the car, no navigation or maps updates, no new software features, never to be fixed bluetooth bugs, and no support for new battery technologies. You've built a disposable car, and most people expect their car to last 10-20 years. Hell, my last car was a "cheap domestic" Chrysler minivan, and it lasted 16 years and 200k miles... and it's still on the road.

5 engineers whose job it is to continually improve the Leafs on the road (software updates, battery updates, etc) would cost you less than $5 per car per year. Sell those upgrades and pay their salary. I would pay good money for a new battery pack that got me 150 miles range. I would pay to remove the "accept/decline" nag screen on every start of the car. I would pay to fix the bluetooth issue that causes the first incoming call to have no sound. I would pay to update the DC/DC converter algorithm to properly charge the 12v battery. The demand is there.

But I wanted to thank you. Because of this, I managed to pick up VERY cheap set of wheels in great condition used. And when the battery is completely toast, I'll probably have plenty more to choose from.

SageBrush
Posts: 2795
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Fri May 25, 2018 11:06 am

Lothsahn wrote:
cwerdna wrote:If this turns out to be true, not a temporary snafu and the price for a new 24 kWh battery for the near to medium term and there's no ~$2850 10+ "refurbished" battery for the US, this is VERY bad news. :(

Very few people will want to fork over this kind of $ on a car that has little value by the time the driver wants a replacement. If it were a 30 or 40 kWh battery, the % of folks willing to pay this price would go up.

Nissan did claim at the time of the $5499 announcement (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 8&p=374490) that they were losing money (subventing): https://insideevs.com/nissan-says-leaf- ... ney-loser/.

Perhaps now that AESC (NEC and Nissan JV) has been sold to a Chinese company, they're getting stiffed or that Chinese company at least wants some profit? Maybe Nissan's tired of making $0 or losing $?

One would've figured that the per kWh cost should've come down in an almost 4 year time span...



Although I have no inside knowledge, I strongly suspect this is the reason. I expect the cost to Nissan of those batteries has gone up now that they no longer own and control the company, and they're passing those costs on to the consumer.

If this is the case, the real answer is to update the BMS and pack to a battery chemistry that's significantly cheaper (such as LG), but whether Nissan cares to do that investment for customer loyalty is anyone's guess. I'm guessing they probably will not do this.

Honestly, if they just removed the dealer-only lockout and documented what the BMS needs to do so that anyone could match a BMS & battery to the car, that would encourage a third party to get involved in this--and benefit both parties. If Nissan truly has no desire to be involved in the battery replacement business, making it as easy as possible for 3rd parties to provide replacement batteries would be a win/win for them, the 3rd party, and Nissan Leaf owners.

Nissan: Take note. Actions like these are why Tesla's resale value of used cars is extremely high and you basically have to give away Leaf's, even though the Leafs are more reliable cars (according to CR). Teslas have long-lived battery packs, over the air updates, and a constant focus on making their cars better--not just the new cars, but existing ones.

My Nissan Leaf is permanently stuck with a fixed 24 kWh pack that is getting more (not less) expensive over time, a nag screen that appears every time I start the car, no navigation or maps updates, no new software features, never to be fixed bluetooth bugs, and no support for new battery technologies. You've built a disposable car, and most people expect their car to last 10-20 years. Hell, my last car was a "cheap domestic" Chrysler minivan, and it lasted 16 years and 200k miles... and it's still on the road.

5 engineers whose job it is to continually improve the Leafs on the road (software updates, battery updates, etc) would cost you less than $5 per car per year. Sell those upgrades and pay their salary. I would pay good money for a new battery pack that got me 150 miles range. I would pay to remove the "accept/decline" nag screen on every start of the car. I would pay to fix the bluetooth issue that causes the first incoming call to have no sound. I would pay to update the DC/DC converter algorithm to properly charge the 12v battery. The demand is there.

But I wanted to thank you. Because of this, I managed to pick up VERY cheap set of wheels in great condition used. And when the battery is completely toast, I'll probably have plenty more to choose from.

Nice post, and I agree with your points but one: the lion's share of replacement batteries are under warranty. As a way to control battery costs from the new battery factory owner this is an obvious failure.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

estomax
Posts: 177
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:23 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 424033
Location: Seattle

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Fri May 25, 2018 8:18 pm

Paying 1.5x the value of a degraded Leaf to fix the battery is insane... you can buy a whole 12 bar Leaf for 8500. there is still hope for the 2850$ refurbished battery that was announced in Japan. If that gets you back to 85-90% then i'd say its worth it.
2013 Leaf SL Premium
27k, 93% SoH 2/17 32k, 96% SoH 6/17
46k, 94% SoH 2/18 52k, 88% SoH 6/18

Lothsahn
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Fri May 25, 2018 10:33 pm

estomax wrote:Paying 1.5x the value of a degraded Leaf to fix the battery is insane... you can buy a whole 12 bar Leaf for 8500. there is still hope for the 2850$ refurbished battery that was announced in Japan. If that gets you back to 85-90% then i'd say its worth it.


That hope remains, although, for now, Nissan says that EPA regulations prevent bringing that battery to the US market. I have no idea what those regulations are, but I too hope that it will become available as well.

douglas
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Fri May 25, 2018 10:43 pm

For anyone living in Los Angeles or Ventura County, you might consider 1st Nissan of Simi Valley. I just replaced my 2011 Leaf battery for $7100. out-the-door. April Waldman, the service rep,, was extremely helpful. - she spoke to her manager and got me a 10% discount. I went in last Monday (5/21), and she managed to get the battery by Wednesday. I had it installed yesterday, and picked it up this morning. It feels like a new car.

jfsquires
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:05 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 0847
Location: Lake Oswego

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Sat May 26, 2018 9:20 am

Does anyone know what the battery replacement policies and long-term support look like
for the other manufactures of electric vehicles?

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Sat May 26, 2018 9:33 am

Lothsahn wrote:I just called Nissan about a replacement battery because my 2011 Nissan leaf is down to 8 bars and I only get about 35 miles on a charge. I was informed that the battery replacement cost is now $7000 plus labor and taxes (up from $5499). This means replacement costs are around $8500. This change occurred a couple months ago. I expressed my displeasure that as battery pack costs continue to drop, Nissan has actually raised their pack pricing.

Wanted to warn everyone out there that this change occurred. This makes it significantly more expensive to repair your used Nissan Leaf, so plan accordingly. It doesn't look like Nissan has any plans to lower pack pricing as manufacturing costs drop.

Also, they said the refurbished battery program in Japan likely won't be coming to the US anytime soon due to EPA regulations.

References:
[1] https://insideevs.com/breaking-nissan-p ... t-durable/
[2] https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/electric ... la-190kwh/


I think you need to clarify and have them verify the size of the pack in question because your statement seems to line up with recent report of "40 kwh" pack replacements.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Sat May 26, 2018 9:37 am

SageBrush wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote: Unlike stockpiling parts packs don't have a shelf life. Should be interesting to see how they handle that.

Yup.

This is actually why I am skeptical of the entire idea of buying a replacement pack aside from cost.
@DaveInOly likes to say that packs are a JIT production item but is that really true, and even if true in the past, will it be true here on out ?

Only the new owners of the battery plant know for sure.


Made no such claim. Cells are produced in batches that takes SEVERAL weeks to complete before the assembly process can begin. This is the likely reason for the "4-8 week" delivery window for pack replacements where we see anywhere from a few days to 2 months. It all depends on where the next batch is in the process.

Cells will be using the most recent chemistry but are still different in build, layering, etc. than current cells by default.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Randy
Moderator
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Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Sat May 26, 2018 9:48 am

You can save 15% (up to $500) in parts and service if you use the Costco referral system.

https://www.costco.com/auto-program-parts-services.html

You type in your make, model, and zipcode, and they refer you to a local dealer that accepts the coupon. It should be good for 15% (up to $500) off of repairs and maintenance...

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