ReisheJ
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:29 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Aug 2017
Leaf Number: 310788

Car in shop--who pays for loaner?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:00 pm

Hi all--

Not sure if this is the right subforum; apologies if it isn't.

My leased 2017 Leaf died three weeks ago, almost exactly one year into the 3-year lease. Dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree and the car wouldn't go into gear. I had it towed to the local dealership (not the dealership which sold me the lease--we bought from a dealer in another town, partly due to inventory at the time).

When I called to follow up I was told there was a short somewhere and they had to find it. Days later they said it was "somewhere in the rear of the car." Then eventually they said the main battery was bad. I asked if they could provide me a loaner car (they didn't offer), and I was told that corporate offered a 5-day "goodwill" rental, which I took advantage of, but had to return after five days.

I called the Leaf Consumer Support, and the rep was very nice. He said he was "absolutely shocked" that the dealer had "snatched the rental away " from me "when they haven't even diagnosed it yet" (which sort of contradicts what the service advisor had been telling me). He offered to intervene, told the dealer that "all dealers give customers loaner cars in this situation" but the dealer held his ground.

I called the dealer I leased the car from, just out of curiosity, and asked him what their policy was in this situation. He told me that corporate paid for the loaner. I repeated this to the Consumer Support guy... who didn't respond to that, so much as waving it off. Sigh. Consumer Support guy has since authorized another five days, so I've got a loaner right now, but I have to give it back after five days or pay out of pocket, which I don't think I should have to do. We're paying the monthly lease to have a car, after all, right?

The service tech, meanwhile, keeps bumping the length of time my car will be ready. It's always about three days from now, "we hope."

My main question is: does anyone know the final answer to this issue? Is corporate responsible for a loaner? My reading of the warranty seems to imply that, and it would seem logical, since corporate is pocketing the lease payments. But I can't find something in writing to take to the Consumer Support Guy. Thankfully our household has another car, but I can't make any appointments or commitments b/c spouse has the car often during the day when he goes to work, and this is getting on my nerves.

Other question is: is this ridiculous for a bad battery, to just tinker with my car for weeks on end? The NY Lemon Law kicks in after 30 days, but I suspect all I would get for a leased car would be released (sorry) from the contract, rather than a replacement car or a real solution. And honestly I don't want this to go on another 10 days anyway.

Thanks in advance for any input.

2k1Toaster
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:45 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 420903

Re: Car in shop--who pays for loaner?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:11 pm

It's very simple. You're not entitled to anything. Full stop.

Some dealers or repair facilities will give loaner cars. Some never do. Some have "rules" that are location specific and are always bent like "if the repair is more than 3 hours, then you get a loaner of a car of equal class or lesser than what you brought in". That type of stuff.

Them giving you a rental car for 5 days is nice and above what they are required to do which is absolutely nothing. It sucks, but it is what it is.

When my Leaf was in the shop for half a year being repaired for 2 hit and run parking lot crashes that happened while it was parked and I inside with the temp tags even still on, I got nothing. I just used a different car. Since it was an insurance claim, my insurance offered to give me a rental car, but I had no need for it. But Nissan offered nothing and neither did the repair shop. The delay was 100% Nissan's fault waiting for parts to come into stock and ship. But I still had to pay insurance and the car note itself for months as it sat in a garage bay.
2013 Nissan Leaf SV with every option
2013 Prius C Package 4
2012 Lexus RX450h
2006 Prius Gen II, pIV
2005 Honda Civic Hybrid
2001 Honda Civic EX
1997 Honda Prelude SH
1981 DeLorean DMC12
and more...

Lothsahn
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Car in shop--who pays for loaner?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:26 pm

ReisheJ wrote:
Other question is: is this ridiculous for a bad battery, to just tinker with my car for weeks on end?

The NY Lemon Law kicks in after 30 days, but I suspect all I would get for a leased car would be released (sorry) from the contract, rather than a replacement car or a real solution. And honestly I don't want this to go on another 10 days anyway.


Seem ridiculous to me, if it truly is a bad battery. But I took my car in 3 times to have a wire unplugged for a TSB that should document the procedure in detail and the technician couldn't, so... nothing surprises me now.

Using the principal of "Getting to Yes", what you need to consider is your BATNA (Best alternative to a negotiated agreement). Based on what you said, it sounds like in 10 days, you can invoke the lemon law, stop payments, hand them the keys and walk OR you could wait until they fix the car. These two options are your BATNA.

I would verify that with the lemon law, I could walk from the payments in 10 days without penalty. If I have confirmed that I could actually do that, this is what I would do:
I would then contact both the dealership and Nissan corporate and inform them that I'm displeased with the length of the repair. I would tell them that I'm paying monthly for the car, and through no fault of my own, the car had a failure. I would inform them that it's been 20 days and I've struggled to get reliable transportation at that time, due to the loaner policy and their conflict on who pays for the loaner.

I would then explain that my primary goal is to get my car back in working condition that has been diagnosed and repaired correctly and to have reliable transportation until that occurs. I would inform them that repeatedly negotiating for 5 more days on a loaner is not what I'm interested in--I want reliable transportation until my car is fixed. If they were willing to provide me a reliable loaner until the car was repaired, I would happily wait another <insert time here>, if necessary, to give them time to schedule and do the repair properly. Then see what they offer.

If they are unwilling to negotiate and provide me with those asks, I would inform them that, given they've refused to give me reliable, hassle free transportation, I plan to invoke the NY lemon law and return the car in 10 days, and I will find a new car. The threat that they're getting your car back is likely to get them to start negotiating and get your car fixed fast or reliable transportation. They don't want the car back -- the car has depreciated far faster than the lease payments in the first year of a 3 year lease, so this is a very bad deal for them.

If they refuse to negotiate even with the lemon law on the table, you're back to your BATNA. Either they'll fix your car within 10 days or you'll get a new car.

Finally, because I believe strongly in ethics, I have to do a morality check on my plan. Do I feel that I'm ripping off Nissan by doing this? In my opinion, I feel that you've given them more than enough time to do that repair and you're paying monthly for reliable transportation that you're not getting, so I don't feel that you're doing anything wrong invoking the lemon law in this case. If they had a reasonable explanation about why the repair was taking so long and they were doing their best to serve me, then I would have an ethical concern and would not use the lemon law, but I didn't hear that in your statement.

If you do invoke the lemon law and get out of the lease contract, you can go somewhere else and get a cheap used Leaf, 2018 Leaf (moar range!), or another car if you want.

Note: I am not a Lawyer and this is not legal advice. I have no knowledge as to what the New York lemon law says.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9212
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Car in shop--who pays for loaner?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:27 pm

When my Leaf was in the shop for half a year being repaired for 2 hit and run parking lot crashes that happened while it was parked and I inside with the temp tags even still on, I got nothing. I just used a different car. Since it was an insurance claim, my insurance offered to give me a rental car, but I had no need for it. But Nissan offered nothing and neither did the repair shop. The delay was 100% Nissan's fault waiting for parts to come into stock and ship. But I still had to pay insurance and the car note itself for months as it sat in a garage bay.


This is substantially different from the OP's situation, in that the car's damage happened at your end. You might not have been at fault in the accident, but the dealer and Nissan were completely uninvolved. So you are using oranges to explain apples. The OP already wrote that Nissan's position is apparently that they pay for loaners while a warranty-covered defect is repaired. You just seem to want to slam the OP for no good reason.

To the OP: that dealership has NO IDEA what is wrong with your car. I suggest you get it to another one, with Leaf-certified techs who know what they are doing. It may be as simple as a defective 12 volt battery...

One post slipped in ahead of mine.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

2k1Toaster
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:45 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 420903

Re: Car in shop--who pays for loaner?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:06 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
When my Leaf was in the shop for half a year being repaired for 2 hit and run parking lot crashes that happened while it was parked and I inside with the temp tags even still on, I got nothing. I just used a different car. Since it was an insurance claim, my insurance offered to give me a rental car, but I had no need for it. But Nissan offered nothing and neither did the repair shop. The delay was 100% Nissan's fault waiting for parts to come into stock and ship. But I still had to pay insurance and the car note itself for months as it sat in a garage bay.


This is substantially different from the OP's situation, in that the car's damage happened at your end. You might not have been at fault in the accident, but the dealer and Nissan were completely uninvolved. So you are using oranges to explain apples. The OP already wrote that Nissan's position is apparently that they pay for loaners while a warranty-covered defect is repaired. You just seem to want to slam the OP for no good reason.

To the OP: that dealership has NO IDEA what is wrong with your car. I suggest you get it to another one, with Leaf-certified techs who know what they are doing. It may be as simple as a defective 12 volt battery...

One post slipped in ahead of mine.


Not at all. What I said is true. Nissan Motor Corporation is under zero obligation to provide you with a rental car or loaner car for any work done while under warranty or otherwise.

What Nissan does offer, like most auto-makers, is a credit back to the dealership in certain situation. Each dealership is a franchise and independently owned and operated. They have no federal regulation that obligates them to give you anything either. Nissan, like every other car company, knows that providing an alternate vehicle when your vehicle is getting repaired, helps with good-will. So they will put a value on various repairs and reimburse the dealership for up to a certain amount on certain repairs. If the dealership wants to give you a loaner (an extra car that the dealership owns) or send you down the street to Hertz, it doesn't matter.

In this case it sounds like the repair had a goodwill amount that Nissan would cover for rentals. That's 5-days. The dealership extended that to the customer. This customer has provided this independent franchise dealer zero income or profit. Not an existing customer, didn't even purchase the vehicle there.

When you have a relationship with the dealer they will routinely go out of their pocket, especially if they have a loaner available vs. 3rd party rental, to keep a good customer.
2013 Nissan Leaf SV with every option
2013 Prius C Package 4
2012 Lexus RX450h
2006 Prius Gen II, pIV
2005 Honda Civic Hybrid
2001 Honda Civic EX
1997 Honda Prelude SH
1981 DeLorean DMC12
and more...

dvu
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:04 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 414294
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Car in shop--who pays for loaner?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:18 pm

What a minute.... I've never had any vehicle service at the dealer w/o a loaner or rental.

So you're saying that Nissan does not provide loaners? The leaf now was the only one I purchased used and it's our first Nissan so I'm unaware of this, but looking at a 2018 leaf now and stumpled on this.

In fact, the reason why I'm going from a 2017 XC90 to another brand mainly because Volvo is going away with loaner but makes us go rent a vehicle when in service. To me, this is consered "bad service" especially for something under warranty.

cwerdna
Posts: 8085
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Car in shop--who pays for loaner?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:35 pm

dvu wrote:What a minute.... I've never had any vehicle service at the dealer w/o a loaner or rental.

So you're saying that Nissan does not provide loaners? The leaf now was the only one I purchased used and it's our first Nissan so I'm unaware of this, but looking at a 2018 leaf now and stumpled on this.

I haven't had a chance to read the OP's post, but as a general rule, non-luxury brand automakers do not tend to provide loaners for repairs or maintenance. I can say this w/experience w/Toyota since 1991 (well, let's just count 2006 to present) and Nissan since late 2001. I'm on my 4th Nissan (02 Maxima bought new, 04 350Z bought new, '13 Leaf leased new, '13 Leaf bought used).

The only times I've ever gotten a loaner from Toyota was when they had to keep my car overnight to cold soak in order to repro an issue. I had to go back to the dealer to have them loan me a Camry Hybrid. I can recall no other time I've received a loaner.

For Nissan, for probably 95+% of my visits, I've never gotten a loaner. It's not just provided. Heck, some Toyota and Nissan dealers only have a 1 way shuttle. :( Long ago, Nissan of Fife (in WA) was willing to provide a loaner I "split" w/a coworker as we were both going there to get warranty work done. I got a loaner or rental car maybe two other times. Another time, I don't recall the reason, but I was provided with a rental by Pacific Nissan in Seattle (dealer closed AGES ago and then was literally demolished years ago). The rental agency only had a POS Chevy Metro (at least it was a 4 cylinder) or a cargo van.

I think I got provided a rental once more for something else by a Nissan Sunnyvale, I think. I don't remember why. I recall there ended up being some confusion as to me being charged for it or whatever. It was resolved amicably.

Generally speaking, the dealer might provide a rental/loaner if the car's going to be in the shop overnight or longer or if there's some maintenance package (usually $100+) that includes a "free" rental/loaner. For something long term, yeah, one would hope they'd provide something for the duration.

Want a more guaranteed loaner? Buy a luxury brand.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

2k1Toaster
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:45 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 420903

Re: Car in shop--who pays for loaner?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:43 pm

dvu wrote:What a minute.... I've never had any vehicle service at the dealer w/o a loaner or rental.

So you're saying that Nissan does not provide loaners? The leaf now was the only one I purchased used and it's our first Nissan so I'm unaware of this, but looking at a 2018 leaf now and stumpled on this.

In fact, the reason why I'm going from a 2017 XC90 to another brand mainly because Volvo is going away with loaner but makes us go rent a vehicle when in service. To me, this is consered "bad service" especially for something under warranty.


Nissan, the big company in Japan that's actually "Nissan Motor Company", does NOT provide loaners. As far as I know, no company guarantees a loaner vehicle. That would be a huge liability.

Some automakers however are much more generous with loaner vehicles. Remember the automakers are not mom-an-pop shops that will give you a car to help you out just because. They are gigantic companies that have calculated the cost benefit of giving out loaners outweighs the actual cost in some situations and for some people.

For example in the Lexus dealership we go to where we have bought about a dozen vehicles over the years, we can go get a loaner any time we want. If we take cars in for service, even if it is just an oil change we can get a loaner. They will even send a sales person out to our house or office to drop off a loaner vehicle and pick up the car to be serviced all for free, just the normal cost of service. Now Toyota Motor Corporation has absolutely nothing to do with this even though that is Lexus. The local dealership is owned by a company that owns several in the area. We have given them business over the years plus lots of service. Read that as $$$. Therefore they are incentivized to treat us better and prioritize loaner vehicles and service so we keep coming back and buying cars. This is a transparent scheme, and it works perfectly. Another benefit is that when you give a loaner car, it is by definition an almost-new vehicle and usually of the same make/model or class that you have. It is harder to go back to your actual car when this one you are sitting in with new-car-smell is so very very nice. Dealerships know this. Give out loaners, get a sale. Porsche even incentivizes just this. They recommend dealers give everyone coming in for service with a Porsche, a Porsche loaner from a class above or more. You bring in your 2012 Panamera in for service. Drive out with a 2018 Panamera Turbo or something like that as a loaner.

Individual dealerships set their loaner programs. It has nothing to do with brand. Even if you search for Volvo's loaner program, you won't find it. What you will find is a bunch of dealerships across the country that "partner with" Volvo to extend a loaner program and the stipulations are varied. I have never seen a guarantee of one.

The only time where you are somewhat entitled to a loaner vehicle is for safety recalls. If your vehicle is in for recall work and the work will take longer than X amount of time, the auto maker (Nissan/Ford/Toyota/etc) may be required to give you one based on local jurisdictions. There is still no FEDERAL law that forces that. Just search for horror stories about the air bag recalls. The Takata air bag recall is serious. If you get in an accident and it sends shrapnel into your face, that's bad news. These cars originally had a "DO NOT DRIVE FOR ANY REASON" type recall. By the time the scope of the problem was discovered, and the limited global supply was realized, this just wasn't feasible and it became "DO NOT DRIVE FOR ANY REASON.... but it may take us 2-3 years to fix it for you... Your call on your face, you've been warned". If you don't get a loaner car for that under federal protection or auto makers, you don't get one for a failed battery.
2013 Nissan Leaf SV with every option
2013 Prius C Package 4
2012 Lexus RX450h
2006 Prius Gen II, pIV
2005 Honda Civic Hybrid
2001 Honda Civic EX
1997 Honda Prelude SH
1981 DeLorean DMC12
and more...

cwerdna
Posts: 8085
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Car in shop--who pays for loaner?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:59 pm

^^^^
Since Lexus was mentioned, I'll mention a side story. I've never owned a Lexus but actually was loaned a Lexus HS 250h for a week sometime between 2009 and 2011.

Ages ago, there was some social media contest thing re: Lexus HS. If you got enough people to vote for you, you could win the use of a Lexus HS for a week. There was also some drawing (I think) to receive a 2 or 3 year lease of it.

I barely made the cut for the HS for a week. I picked a dealer near me and picked up the car. I recall signing some sort of rental agreement and the owner was a bank w/Japanese name (it wasn't well known IIRC so probably not UFJ, Mizuho or Sumitomo). The car was brand new with almost no miles on the clock but already w/Lexus of Bellevue service loaner decal on the back window. I told the service guy I'd be putting a few hundred miles on it. He didn't care. I asked what the arrangement was and what the deal was w/the weird bank. IIRC, Toyota apparently allocates them cars as loaners. The dealer leases them and uses them as service loaners. At the end, of lease, the dealer buys them and sells them as used cars.

Because I won and picked them, they got allocated 1 more car (for the above). So, it sounded like a win win for them.

(That dealer is pretty fancy inside (far beyond any non-luxury brand dealer I've set foot in). I remember a big fish tank and escalators. Google has pics of the inside,)

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

dvu
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:04 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 414294
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Car in shop--who pays for loaner?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:06 pm

Thanks for that... I've always own EU brand and one Lexus beside the leaf so I wasn't aware of this. It has always been as you described, gotten a pretty decent loaner.

Definitely a good to know so I don't go screaming at Nissan SA when I have to Uber home. Lol

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