powersurge
Posts: 1127
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:51 am

alozzy wrote:@powersurge Not sure, but I'm getting the impression that you're not a fan of this idea

;)


Absolute NOT.... I LOVE the idea that there are independent people finding new solutions to the problem of battery replacement... I would definitely be a customer of your company....

What I was against, and I will edit my previous post, is where the Nissan company does not allow others the ability to change the battery, and then want to "lease" the battery to all Nissan customers. If I OWN my car and decide to replace MY battery with a third party battery, then I CHOOSE who to buy or lease from. That is my problem with the current Leaf batteries... That they are proprietary, and controlled by Nissan...

tattoogunman
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:17 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2016
Location: Plano, Texas

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:11 am

powersurge wrote:
alozzy wrote:@powersurge Not sure, but I'm getting the impression that you're not a fan of this idea

;)


Absolute NOT.... I LOVE the idea that there are independent people finding new solutions to the problem of battery replacement... I would definitely be a customer of your company....

What I was against, and I will edit my previous post, is where the Nissan company does not allow others the ability to change the battery, and then want to "lease" the battery to all Nissan customers. If I OWN my car and decide to replace MY battery with a third party battery, then I CHOOSE who to buy or lease from. That is my problem with the current Leaf batteries... That they are proprietary, and controlled by Nissan...


Nissan isn't the only company maintaining proprietary control over their hardware and batteries though, but I see where you are coming from. The biggest issue is the one we've already talked about - there just isn't a 3rd party option for EV packs (what Fenix is trying to do notwithstanding), so you don't really have a choice in the matter if you need a replacement pack (for now at least).

JohnBysinger
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:16 am

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:40 pm

powersurge wrote:
alozzy wrote:@powersurge Not sure, but I'm getting the impression that you're not a fan of this idea

;)


Absolute NOT.... I LOVE the idea that there are independent people finding new solutions to the problem of battery replacement... I would definitely be a customer of your company....

What I was against, and I will edit my previous post, is where the Nissan company does not allow others the ability to change the battery, and then want to "lease" the battery to all Nissan customers. If I OWN my car and decide to replace MY battery with a third party battery, then I CHOOSE who to buy or lease from. That is my problem with the current Leaf batteries... That they are proprietary, and controlled by Nissan...


Well, I get what you're saying, so no worries here. But we are exploring the pricing of a combination of full-purchase and a smaller subscription cost for the service, this isn't the first time that people have expressed an interest in just outright buying our solution. It is worth noting though, that to do so there won't be cost savings over Nissan's newly raised pack replacement costs. We believe there will be more value, but with the tech we're developing, it's not going to be much lower than the $8500 seen in the other thread. What we're intending to provide is the least cost prohibitive method, which is the basic install cost, and a subscription, but we're investigating two other possibilities:

An outright purchase option, in this case, the pack will function just like the stock pack, but to enjoy the benefits of our service, a smaller, reasonable monthly cost can be chosen as well. This may or may not include the cost of labor for swapping modules that need to be replaced for those opting into the service. It's possible we'll offer both methods, some DIY types may wish full control, including install. Our module design has features that make it much more human-serviceable than other battery solutions. For example, when not installed in a pack, the high voltage connections are inert, making the module completely safe to handle.

An amortized purchase option, the monthly subscription would be higher for a period of time to pay off the pack, and once paid off, the owner would have the option to continue the service at the same lower cost discussed just above. We estimate around $200 per month for 3-4 years, but there are some unknowns here, usually in a case like this you leverage a company to underwrite the payoff, and we haven't started exploring the ramifications of this just yet. We should have the details of both of these options solved in the months before we get to production so look for that information around the beginning of summer 2019.

webeleafowners
Posts: 523
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:34 pm

Thank you for the reply. I wish you and your business well.

For feedback purposes; we would be interested in something along the the line of a 25 percent increase to our existing pack. Say 10 to 12 KWh , added to our existing pack. We would not be interested in any sort of lease but rather a straight out purchase.

Kudos to you and your team. Wishing you success on all fronts.

John and Angela.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

JohnBysinger
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:16 am

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:17 pm

webeleafowners wrote:Thank you for the reply. I wish you and your business well.

For feedback purposes; we would be interested in something along the the line of a 25 percent increase to our existing pack. Say 10 to 12 KWh , added to our existing pack. We would not be interested in any sort of lease but rather a straight out purchase.

Kudos to you and your team. Wishing you success on all fronts.

John and Angela.


I appreciate the good wishes, it's been a ton of work to get this far, and much more to go still.

I've been hearing the range increase ask quite a bit, and while it's on our roadmap, as I've said above, we're being careful not to promise it just yet. But the ask from you and literally a hundred others I've spoken with is "more". 3 years ago I shopped around the idea of just a battery expansion product, removable, same modules (because if it's removable, humans have to be able to move them easily) but what I found was that the cost/benefit was just not compelling enough for that kind of product alone.

Consider the following: 25% of a 30kWh pack adds a little more than 30 miles and about 8kWh (the 12kWh you mention above is a 40% increase.) The best case cost estimate we put together for a 6kWh increase (only 20% and about 22 miles) and looked like our cost would be close to $3,000 and retail for a significant amount more. The reactions we got at that pricing were that it was too much for too little gain.

It was through this above product research, along with about a half dozen others, that we realized that something has to be done about the cost. Battery cost has a negative impact at the initial purchase (and will likely prevent a decent range sub $20k new car for a very long time), it's amazingly expensive to replace when it gets tired and can effectively make a car valueless when the cost of replacement is more than the car's value. So this is where the seeds of our Battery as a Service model was born. But pitching this model to folks like you has its challenges, it gets compared with a Lease, people want to own it, etc. So one more thought experiment for you:

How do you watch movies at home today? When is the last time you actually bought a DVD or a BluRay? For the most part that began to fade when Netflix started mailing discs, and went away nearly completely when streaming media was available on nearly everything. Right now, we believe, car batteries are in the movie-media 1990s. People are buying their batteries, using them until they're "dead", and then buying new ones. In the 90's many people bought 100's of dollars in movies, and when they had watched them all, they bought more. Today you spend about $80/year on a subscription, and you get the newest, best movies, whenever, and wherever you want. You stopped caring about going to the store to get a movie, or worrying that the kids will scratch them all up and you'll have to buy them again if you loved them. We're going to do that with your batteries. Let us worry about the upkeep, and stop worrying about your car's value tanking because they need to be replaced. You never "leased" movies, not in the individual sense, and with our model, you won't be leasing the battery either.

You may want to own your battery right now, but give us a few years, you'll see why you never want to own one again.

I hope you don't mind the added pitch, I would be remiss if I let it pass. :)

webeleafowners
Posts: 523
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:35 pm

Very interesting and thanks for the reply.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

golfcart
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:08 am
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:11 am

The timing on this is perfect for me. I have a 2015 leaf S with QC that just lost its first bar and I anticipate having trouble making my daily winter commute over the next year or two (I am already cutting it close on cold mornings where I have to defrost). Not to mention my battery will probably be out of warranty due to me hitting 60k miles next winter. I have been exploring options like battery replacement, stopping to charge every day on my way to work (a hassle but manageable), or trading in my current leaf on a 2018+ leaf or other BEV.

I am intrigued enough that I put down a deposit on your website this morning... Given the current options of an $8500 24kWh replacement pack or spending $30k on a new car (minus the tax credit and equity in my current vehicle) I think a <$100 per month subscription service may be the best deal. My current leaf has had 0 issues aside from replacing tires and windshield wipers and I already have things like a tow hitch, aftermarket speakers, 6-month old tires, and other things installed on it that I'd like to keep. Plus it'll be paid off soon...

I do want to stress that being able to install a larger 30kWh (or more) capacity pack will make this a no-brainer for me. The only real advantages a 2018+ leaf hold for me are looks and range. I am ambivalent towards the pro-pilot stuff and e-pedal. I tried them out, they are cool, but given my 95% highway commute each day they don't do much for me that b-mode, cruise control, and paying attention don't already accomplish. The 30kWh pack would not only expand my range to nearby cities and reduce the number of times I need to charge, but the extra capacity would also allow me to almost exclusively charge at the dealer QC station for free (which will offset $25 a month or so of the pack lease cost).

I also have solar panels on the roof and would love to be able to use the leaf as a battery backup in case of extended power outages (we do get hurricanes from time to time). So a larger pack paired with some sort of V2G would be very attractive for me.

I hope y'all make this work, I think it'll breathe new life into a lot of Gen1 leaf's that are great cars aside from their limited range. And I hope you are able to expand into home storage or V2G because I am interested in both even if I can't get a net-metered TOU plan from my power company.

I am only a 3hr drive from Raleigh and 5hr drive from Charlotte and have friends in both cities so if Y'all end up in one of those metros (like you suggest on your webpage) I'd definitely roll out that way and check out the operation (assuming you'll have a showroom/demo setup). I'd especially like to see one of those corvettes in person.
Last edited by golfcart on Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
2015 S with Charge Package

User avatar
Marktm
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Posts: 424
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Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 022737
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:56 am

golfcart wrote:I also have solar panels on the roof and would love to be able to use the leaf as a battery backup in case of extended power outages (we do get hurricanes from time to time). So a larger pack paired with some sort of V2G would be very attractive for me.

I hope y'all make this work, I think it'll breathe new life into a lot of Gen1 leaf's that are great cars aside from their limited range. And I hope you are able to expand into home storage or V2G because I am interested in both even if I can't get a net-metered TOU plan from my power company.


My company (a large EPC engineering firm) is supporting an internal initiative focused on V2G as a "disruptive" influence on EV adoption (among others). My personal opinion is that any such "disruption" will be amplified by V2H/V2G combined via use of the EVs battery for both backup AND energy arbitrage to provide additional economic incentives. We will likely see indications over the next few years if this is true!

golfcart - look carefully at Pika Energy's offerings - they are quite close to home use of EV batteries, but for a number of (good) reasons cannot focus on a commercial offering.

johnBysinger - You might PM me about our initiative - possibility of mutual benefits.
2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

golfcart
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:08 am
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:14 am

Marktm wrote:
golfcart - look carefully at Pika Energy's offerings - they are quite close to home use of EV batteries, but for a number of (good) reasons cannot focus on a commercial offering.



I'll check them out and see what they offer. Thanks.

As an aside, I actually misspoke above, Dominion Virginia Power does offer a net metered TOU plan. However, we only pay 11.5 c/kWh and the net metered TOU plan is loaded with extremely high "demand" charges such that it doesn't make a lot of economic sense for me to have a separate battery backup all the time... so being able to plug the car into the house to store solar power and run the house when the power goes out is my big goal. I basically want to get rid of the loud propane generator that just takes up space in my garage and only gets used once every couple of years.
2015 S with Charge Package

powersurge
Posts: 1127
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Fenix Power: A new third party battery replacement?

Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:41 pm

I see the appeal of having a subscription model for batteries, however the stated price of $200/ month service contract for a Leaf battery would be out of the question for me.... That is what I used to spend on gas with my ICE. I could also lease a brand new Leaf for $300 or so..

Another way we Leaf owners could go would be for us all to do what Americans do when they don't like something... Blame the government.... The government wanted us to buy EVs, and has lulled us into a false sense of security by giving the $7500+ tax refunds. I would not have bought my Leaf at full price, especially since the EV is in its infancy stage....

So thanks to the government, (if the future maintenance and owning of my Leaf is so unsure), I want the government to pay for my new battery. They MADE me buy the damn thing to begin with!!! (So how does that sound as an argument to get free batteries?)

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