Am I nuts or scared?

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hrustar

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2018
Messages
7
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Getting closer and closer to picking up our Leaf. Still time to back out. It's a 2015 SL with 16k miles. I like going electric, but it seems crazy to spend any amount of money on a vehicle that only goes 80 miles under ideal situations. It's dang cold in Minnesota, so I expect my range to be closer to 60 miles (which is more than adequate for daily needs). Thought about moving to a 2016 with a 30KW engine, but the jump in miles isn't all that great. This all seems nuts at times, but going electric also seems smart.

The group's insights would be great.
 
hrustar said:
Getting closer and closer to picking up our Leaf. Still time to back out. It's a 2015 SL with 16k miles. I like going electric, but it seems crazy to spend any amount of money on a vehicle that only goes 80 miles under ideal situations. It's dang cold in Minnesota, so I expect my range to be closer to 60 miles (which is more than adequate for daily needs). Thought about moving to a 2016 with a 30KW engine, but the jump in miles isn't all that great. This all seems nuts at times, but going electric also seems smart.

The group's insights would be great.

Great question but I think that ultimately only you can answer.

Here are some things to consider:

Is this your only car?
If you have to take a trip that exceeds the range of the car, do you have charging options available to you? if so, how often do you need to take that longer trip?

I dipped my toe in the water with the Volt, got hooked on EVs and then bought our Leaf. That gives me flexibility and allows me to choose the right tool for the job. Driving around town? Take the Leaf. Got to log some miles or it's gonna be tight with the range and it's going to be a PITA to charge, take the Volt.

I really, really (REALLY) don't want to start a whole tired 'lease vs buy' debate here but another option you may want to consider is a 3 yr lease on a new Leaf. Probably about the same amount of money to spend as buying a 2015 and you get a new car with more range and can walk away from it if it's not for you or the battery degrades, etc.

Of course, you could always just sell the 2015 too so it really comes down to what you prefer there. Again leasing is not for everyone and not really the subject of this thread.

I do think that once you go EV it's really hard to go back to ICE. So much to love about EVs - I especially love the driving experience, reduced maintenance, technology and environmental advantages.

Hope this helps!
 
There will inevitably have been some battery degradation, which you can estimate crudely by counting the number of bars – there should be 12. 11 indicates a loss of capacity of about 15%, 10 about 21%. For a more accurate measurement many forum members use Leaf Spy, a program written by Turbo3, who often answers questions in the forum. If you have an iPhone, he recommends the LE Link 2 OBD scanner, which works for me.

Electric vehicles are much less efficient in very cold weather, as you note. Here in New Jersey we occasionally get Minnesota-like temperatures, and in my 2013 Leaf I've recorded efficiency of only 3 miles per kWh at 9°F, whereas in summer I get about 4.7. So if the car you're thinking of buying has say 15% degradation, your winter range may be more like 50 miles, maybe less on very cold days.

Another issue is that you can't let a Leaf sit outside for long if it's below -13°F, because the battery can freeze.

So, much as I like to recommend EVs, and I love driving my own Leaf (just upgraded to the second-generation 2019 model), you're not going be happy if you have to turn off the heater and pray you can get home in subzero weather.
 
If your range needs don't exceed 50 miles, don't worry about it. Keep it charged to roughly 90% (or 100% if charged right before use) and if your range seems dicey, just slow down. Use the more accurate range estimator on the Nav screen (lower estimate) and the partial recirculate feature to lower heater drain.

Thought about moving to a 2016 with a 30KW engine...
Before Cwerdna jumps on you: it's battery capacity, not "engine" power, and it's measured in KWH. Your 2015 Leaf is 24kwh. The actual motor power is 80kw in all gen 1 Leafs.

Two slips ahead of me.
 
Another issue is that you can't let a Leaf sit outside for long if it's below -13°F, because the battery can freeze.

There is a battery warmer to prevent that, from 2012 on. It does slowly drain the pack; I think it uses something like 3% charge a day, so that isn't usually a huge problem, especially as it takes the pack more than a day to actually reach a seriously low temp in frigid weather. You are confusing ambient temp with pack temp.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Thought about moving to a 2016 with a 30KW engine...
Before Cwerdna jumps on you: it's battery capacity, not "engine" power, and it's measured in KWH. Your 2015 Leaf is 24kwh. The actual motor power is 80kw in all gen 1 Leafs.

Two slips ahead of me.
Yep. Thank you!

'16 Leaf SV and SL have 30 kWh batteries. '16 S was still 24 kWh before they quietly introduced a 30 kWh "S 30" near the end of the '16 model year: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1106593_nissan-leaf-s-quietly-gets-30-kwh-battery-upgrade-higher-price.

EPA range rating on a full charge on a new battery on the '13 to '15 24 kWh cars was 84 miles vs. 107 miles on the 30 kWh cars. A '13 Leaf has been my primary car since end of July 2013. But, I have free charging at work, not a long commute (under 13 miles each way) and it doesn't get crazy cold here.
 
I live in Wayzata Minnesota. Even during polar vortex sub zero cold snaps in the middle of January I can easily make my 35 mile round trip commute. This is with heat blasting on high going 70mph on the freeway plus remote starting vehicle for 10 minutes before leaving work. Granted I have the 30kwh battery but I'm also down a capacity bar, shouldn't be a problem even with a 24kwh Leaf.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Another issue is that you can't let a Leaf sit outside for long if it's below -13°F, because the battery can freeze.

There is a battery warmer to prevent that, from 2012 on. It does slowly drain the pack; I think it uses something like 3% charge a day, so that isn't usually a huge problem, especially as it takes the pack more than a day to actually reach a seriously low temp in frigid weather. You are confusing ambient temp with pack temp.

I'm quoting Nissan. Here's the relevant text from my 2013 owner manual:

"To prevent damage to the Li-ion battery: Do not store a vehicle in temperatures below -13°F (-25°C) for over seven days. If the outside temperature is -13°F (-25°C) or less, the Li-ion battery may freeze and it cannot be charged or provide power to run the vehicle. Move the vehicle to a warm location.
NOTE:
• Connect the charger to the vehicle and place the power switch in the OFF position when parking the vehicle if temperatures may go below -4°F (-20°C). This provides external power to the Li-ion battery warmer when it operates and does not discharge the Li-ion battery. Vehicle driving range is reduced if the Li-ion battery warmer operates (Li-ion battery temperature approximately -4°F (-20°C) or colder) while driving the vehicle. You may need to charge the Li-ion battery sooner than in warmer temperatures."

So presumably the battery warmer could run down the traction battery by 7 days. Obviously, if the OP has a garage or can connect to a charger outside, there shouldn't be a problem.
 
I think that we are just disagreeing about how long is "long," and that Nissan was being cautious. It is definitely not a good idea to store an unplugged Leaf in sustained sub-zero temps for more than 3-10 days, depending on state of charge. It's just that the clock doesn't start until the pack temp reaches about 7F and the warmer switches on, and sustained, around the clock double-digit subzero temps have become rare in the US - even in much of Alaska.
 
Your on the hunt for an electric car. If this car has the range to work for you and is a price your happy with then what is the downside? I recently purchased a lease return at a price I was very happy with. I am enjoying this vehicle much more than I ever imagined. In fact it seems we have raised the bar on our driving habits. It used to be 'No' when she wanted to drive into the country for brunch or a craft sale as I said we have these stores closer to us and the gas, the cost of gas! Now I find myself looking forward to going places, shopping on the other side of the city, walking trails that I would never have driven to before etc etc. An unexpected result of driving on the cheap has been more going out and doing things more often.
Our AWD Subaru now takes up space and is almost annoying me just sitting in the driveway.

But that's us. We were shopping for a new vehicle with zero percent interest. I made an excel sheet and figured out the actual prices of the cars we wanted after 6 years of ownership. I inputted the fuel use as per Transport Canada fuel ratings. At the end of 6 years a cheap $22,000 Jeep was over $36K, a Tucson was over $40k and a Outlander was $48 k. I realized I wasn't willing to pay all that money for the privilege of driving a new car. I looked at Hybrids and saw a much better value but still the initial cost was high. I was so sick of looking at cars I decided to stop. Then a pop up ad for a Leaf came up on my phone. The price was amazing and after I looked at the cost of ownership for a full electric car we drove it and bought it ... as in we bought it right after the test drive. That is not us, we look and shop and compare but 'wow' this car was great! We acted and bought it. So now it's always an end of work discussion on what we are doing the next day, do we have enough juice to do it, do we need to plug in etc. Love it!

It's good to be nuts!
 
hrustar said:
a vehicle that only goes 80 miles under ideal situations. It's dang cold in Minnesota, so I expect my range to be closer to 60 miles
Just to set your expectations: those range values are probably much higher than you will probably get.

With my 2013 with a battery 13% degraded, I got 75 miles range in the summer and no more than 55 miles range in the winter, and that was after I learned to drive sedately. That is, I got 4.3mi/kWh in the summer which dropped to 3.6mi/kWh in the winter. Before I learned to drive sedately, I was getting 3.7mi/kWh in the summer. How you drive and how much you use heat (in the winter) will really affect your range.

And my winters are mild compared to yours.
 
LeftieBiker said:
It's just that the clock doesn't start until the pack temp reaches about 7F and the warmer switches on, and sustained, around the clock double-digit subzero temps have become rare in the US - even in much of Alaska.

LOL last winter we had 10 days straight with a high temperature below -10F, granted that isn't normal though :) I can say you can get NO battery temperature bars when it's -25F and the car was outside the whole time. But it "starts" fine unlike our VW diesel, which will start but doesn't like it.

But I would agree you looking about 80 miles in summer and we are lucky to run 40 miles in winter on snow packed roads about 0F. Dry road maybe 50 miles and that is using the battery to 5%, which I wouldn't recommend in winter up by us :)
 
BrockWI said:
Ours is garaged, but I work doubles a lot and ours sits outside for 18 hours leaving at 2 am to 3 am

good point. Only that garaged means warmer pack so will take more charge.

But I would NEVER take a 24 kwh LEAF over 30 kwh...
 
lkkms2 said:
I would assume you want the heated steering wheel and heated seats. Forgot if the 2015 SL has this, but pls check.

All Leafs from 2013 through 2017 had the heated steering wheel and heated front seats, IIRC. Heated rear seats became scarce or nonexistent after...2015? 2014?
 
LeftieBiker said:
lkkms2 said:
I would assume you want the heated steering wheel and heated seats. Forgot if the 2015 SL has this, but pls check.

All Leafs from 2013 through 2017 had the heated steering wheel and heated front seats, IIRC. Heated rear seats became scarce or nonexistent after...2015? 2014?

My 2015 S that I picked up a few weeks ago has heated rear seats - for what it's worth.
 
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