How many solar panels?

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phorland69

New member
Joined
Apr 21, 2011
Messages
1
Hello,

I'm new to the forum.
This car is pretty exciting.

I'm planning to buy a leaf soon this summer and I'd like to recharge it ONLY with solar panels during the summer, of course.
Is that something totally unrealistic?
I live in Maryland just outside DC
If there's already a thread about this, please point me to it
Thanks
Philippe
 
Not enough information.
A solar installer can help you with this.
figure 12kWh a day to charge the car to half full and add your household usage.
all of it depends on your existing electric usage and how much you drive.
if you drive less, you need fewer kWh.

Also, electric-rate plan matters. If they offer Time of Use, you need fewer panels than if they dont.
 
Depends on how many miles you'd want to drive. If you drove 10,000 miles a year then you'd need 3333 kWh. How many panels would you need go generate 33 kWh? Well, in a reasonably sunny place you should expect 1500 wh or 1.5 kWh annually for every installed watt (you can make this approximation exact by going online and finding a web site that will give you this information by zipcode). Thus to generate 3333 kWh you'd need 2222 installed watts. How many panels you'd need for 2222 installed watts? Depends on the panel. If each panel was rated at 175 watts you'd need 13/14 panels. If each panel was rated at 200 watts you'd need 11/12.

Of course in addition to location of the panels things like roof pitch and shading and orientation will also affect production so this is SWAG not a precise estimate.
 
Just to be clear, I assume you plan to install solar panels onto the grid?
You weren't talking about trying to directly charge the Leaf from a solar panel array, right?

So this becomes a discussion about average power usage, compared to total daytime solar power generation.

It works out better if you give any excess solar power to the grid during the day, and recharge at night whenever possible.
 
SanDust said:
If you drove 10,000 miles a year then you'd need 3333 kWh. <snip> Thus to generate 3333 kWh you'd need 2222 installed watts.
Wow, that seems like a really complicated way of figuring it. Wouldn't it be much simpler to figure a 27Kwh charge (24 + charging inefficiency) divided by a 6 hour charge, giving you a needed 4.5Kwh array? Or am I missing something? Yes, that's technically overkill since you won't be charging all the time, but if you want to actually "charge your car from the solar" (as opposed to "putting enough back on the grid to offset your charge"), that's what you'd need, right?
 
GeekEV said:
Wow, that seems like a really complicated way of figuring it. Wouldn't it be much simpler to figure a 27Kwh charge (24 + charging inefficiency) divided by a 6 hour charge, giving you a needed 4.5Kwh array? Or am I missing something? Yes, that's technically overkill since you won't be charging all the time, but if you want to actually "charge your car from the solar" (as opposed to "putting enough back on the grid to offset your charge"), that's what you'd need, right?
You can't realistically match charging the Leaf to solar production from a PV system. PV systems don't work this way. Even assuming you'd always be home for the right six hours a day, the rating on a PV system are for the maximum production, and you're not going to reach the maximum production for every hour of every day. In fact you won't reach it at all some days. You have cloudy days and winter days and rainy days, during all of which you won't see anything close to the system's rated output.
 
SanDust said:
You can't realistically match charging the Leaf to solar production from a PV system. PV systems don't work this way. Even assuming you'd always be home for the right six hours a day, the rating on a PV system are for the maximum production, and you're not going to reach the maximum production for every hour of every day. In fact you won't reach it at all some days. You have cloudy days and winter days and rainy days, during all of which you won't see anything close to the system's rated output.
No you can't realistically match solar production to LEAF charging. And you really never would, just doesn't make any sense when you can go grid-tie or have an offline solar system with batteries. Either way, it works great!

What most people will do is install a grid tie solar system, where you bascially use the entire national electrical grid as your battery. Economically, in some areas with high power costs and usage tiers on a time of use (TOU) rate, this can be around 300% economically efficient - I.e. putting power in during the day on the TOU peak for a $0.35/kWh credit and chargin the EV off peak for $0.11/kWh. The numbers vary widely, but you get the idea. And it's a good thing, your solar panels help the grid out during peak air conditioning load which drives the peak where dirtier peaking power plants come online and sometimes lead to blackouts. You charge your EV at night when baseline power plants that can't vary their output need to sell the electricity at night and need more customers. Grid tie is definitely the way to go if you can, which is true of most city / suburban residences.

Remote rural residences without a connection to the electric grid need an offline solar system with batteries. The batteries store the solar energy during the day and provide electricity at night when the sun goes down to run your house and charge your EV. Very few people will need an offline (non grid-tie) system with batteries.

Consulting a solar professional or friend in your area is a great start. Figure out your LEAF electricity usage as roughly 3 miles/kWh after accounting for charging losses etc. Figure out how many miles you drive on average during the week, or however long a period you need to have a meaningful average, like if you take a long trip only once a month. Figure out how many kWh that is over what time period and give that to the Solar person. They know how do to size a system large enough to produce that much energy. Always size it a bit bigger to allow for growth in your electric consumption and/or LEAF miles driven (with ZERO emissions - excluding a little brake dust and rubber particles from the tires!)

If it is an offline system with batteries, you'll need to size the battery bank appropriately. I'd suggest large enough to get a full LEAF charge and power the house for two or three days. If you need a full 24 kWh charge of the LEAF EVERYDAY - few people will - and you have no other charging or transportation options, then you may need to size the solar system battery large enough for two or three full LEAF charges plus the house. That's a big battery bank, but it's doable and if you really are rural without the electric grid will likely still be much cheaper than getting the grid extended to your location.

The question isn't really how many panels, it's really how many kWh AC of solar generation do I need each day (or whatever interval you choose to do the math.) The type and configuration of solar panels will be determined by the other solar equipment you use, cost, availability, and enough of them to produce the required energy. The number of and type of solar panels is really a system design detail that doesn't need to be worked out until later in the project.

If you post you're intended usage / average miles driven and whether your house is connected to the electrical grid, you'll likely get more help from this forum.

Do check out solar professionals and installers in your area. New solar companies like SolarCity are offering solar systems as a lease or purchase with very little or no upfront money since they finance the system for a decade or more but the system pays for itself in less time than that. The tradeoff is that they share in your savings over that time period, so if you financed it in cash upfront you get a slightly higher return on your investment.
 
SanDust said:
You can't realistically match charging the Leaf to solar production from a PV system. PV systems don't work this way. Even assuming you'd always be home for the right six hours a day, the rating on a PV system are for the maximum production, and you're not going to reach the maximum production for every hour of every day. . . . . . . . . . snip
When PV contractors make up a system, they'll base it of your 'need' ... whether it's whole house ... 80% usage ... or any known given you ask them to work with. Typically, a contractor will require your last year's (or two year's) billing so they can crunch the data. THAT will take into account YOUR individual daytime hours ... clouds ... hot/cold temps etc. Being grid tied, it doesn't matter whether you're at home or not because while you're away, your meter will be building a surplus toward your account that you can use later. Alternatively, you can build an even SMALLER system by charging on "super time of use (tou)" billing cycle ... typically after midnight, for EV charging. Your surplus is credited at a higher value (because daytime power is the most costly) which makes greater use/value of your daytime solar power generation. The only caveat is that sometimes your utility company will miss-program the tou meter. The LA times wrote up an article about utility companty billing folly in 2007. All that to say the programmers/meter readers are DEFINITELY not infallible. We've spent the last 3 months trying to force SCE to credit us for the $100 their inept programmer has caused. Thank God we bought a clamp on meter and kept copious records. Sheesh. You'd THINK you could get an audit started with a simple showing that tou billing is making your surplus SMALLER ... when in fact using NO power during the day necessarily makes your surplus larger. And don't EVEN dare to ask the utility to explain how to read the volumes of screens that a tou meter displays. You will get frustrated beyond belief with how little the grid tied PV department knows/understands.
;)
 
phorland69 said:
Hello,

I'm new to the forum.
This car is pretty exciting.

I'm planning to buy a leaf soon this summer and I'd like to recharge it ONLY with solar panels during the summer, of course.
Is that something totally unrealistic?
I live in Maryland just outside DC
If there's already a thread about this, please point me to it
Thanks
Philippe
For your location, the back of the bar napkin would be roughly one panel for every 1000 miles you drive in a year.

Assumptions:
Your area gets 4.47 average solar hours per day over the course of the year
200W panel yielding 180W generates 294kWh annually in your location
3.4 miles per kWh of charge gets you roughly 1000 miles per panel
 
ElectricVehicle said:
Economically, in some areas with high power costs and usage tiers on a time of use (TOU) rate, this can be around 300% economically efficient - I.e. putting power in during the day on the TOU peak for a $0.35/kWh credit and chargin the EV off peak for $0.11/kWh.

Yes, in some areas. The OP needs to check with his utility. With our Utility, it makes no sense to go to TOU because even though we would pay $ .35/kwh during peak times, they would only pay us the extra back at less than $.04/kwh. So now, I can charge my LEAF any time of the day and just use the panels. The reserve will be used on cloudy/rainy days.
 
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