Do we really need level 2 public charging?

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GregH

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
860
Location
Irvine, CA
Sorry for sounding like a heretic, but this whole AB475 fiasco has got me wondering how important is the level 2 public charging infrastructure? In the old days, the gen1 EV1s only went 50-70 miles in normal driving but could charge at 6.6kw so an hour of charge could be a substantial boost. Now with my Leaf I've got 90+ miles of range but a wimpy 3.3kw charger. How often do I need (or can I stand to wait for) a charge? As the public level 2 chargers begin to fill up with PHEVs who clearly don't need a charge, or other BEVs just looking for some free juice, how easy will it be in the future for me to get my measly 3.3kw if I really do need it? Is the level 2 infrastructure really needed or is it just a big boondoggle so we can all get free fuel? I guess if they ever start charging money for a level 2 charge, we'll find out.
And where are these quick chargers we were promised? Grumble...
 
I have very little need for public level 2 charging and didn't get the QC port. I could make use of a level 2 charger in Claremont, CA, but not having one isn't that big a deal. Probably varies a lot from person to person.
 
I would not stand and wait for a charge unles it was critical.
And yes I think we need L2 at destinations where we will spend more than 30 minutes.
 
I can sympathize with what you are saying. As I've said in another thread, I hope some folks with a lot of real world experience with EV's are in charge of making these decisions because after just 5K miles on the Leaf, everything I thought before owning one has been turned on it's head, well, accept that I was anticipating this car being ground breaking, which it absolutely has been. 100 miles turns out to be more than enough for virtually all of my day to day driving. I've gradually gone from thinking I'd only charge using L1, to having the Blink installed in the garage and soon thinking there should be L2's everywhere and screw L1, to gradually thinking that other than L2 at work and home, it seems that L3 is really going to be the big deal in terms of a network for those times when I want to go beyond the usual day to day circle of stops. Lately I've even been thinking "who needs an L2 network"... and as soon as the batteries double, L3 will dominate other than home and work and maybe even something faster than L3 will soon be on the horizon and take over. I'm willing to wait around, ponder qualitative values and be zen as the car charges but in the main stream, for this technology to really fly, people are going to want whatever the fastest charging option is beyond their 8 hour work day charging and 8 hour charging while asleep... even waiting 25 minutes is going to be a stretch for the main stream.

I'm still very much a nube with all of this, so I openly admit my opinion is in flux and probably subject to even more change as I get more long term experience with this transformational technology. Again, I truly hope the folks making these decision are truly seasoned in the real world needs of EV ownership and are really looking at the long view.
 
I keep making this point on many different threads, as battery capacity increases, the need for charging stations decreases. There will always be long distance EV drivers that will need charging facilities, and hopefully an infrastructure will be built for them, but I personally would much rather have a bigger battery and just charge at home.

I went to LAX intending to get my first public charge, but as I expected all the stations were in use, fortunately I started with a 100% charge and was able to get home comfortably with a couple bars. Had there been some traffic calamity and I got diverted into LA traffic hell, I might not have made it. I'd have to spend an hour or two with the friendly Nissan sales rep downtown...
 
There are trips I would like to make and can't, and level 2 would help for some of them. That said, QC would help a heck of a lot more.

What I don't really get is public level 1 charging. It's so slow that the times I would find it useful are very few (maybe at an airport parking lot?).
 
I will start by saying that my EV experience is limited to four months of LEAF ownership.

However, I believe that public L2 charging is highly desirable, for the following reasons:

1. DC Fast Charging is often what we really want, but realistically it's quite expensive to install and won't be nearly as common as L2 for a number of years. If one can make use of L2 at a destination/store/whatever, even if for only an hour or two, that can in some cases make the difference as to whether a trip is feasible or not.

2. "Topping up" by way of "opportunity charging" gives one the flexibility to make additional, unplanned sidetrips as the need arises.

3. Less "range anxiety", especially among those considering the purchase of an EV.

4. 70-100 miles of range may be plenty for many, but here in Southern California for instance, things tend to be spread out. One of the "selling points" of living in SoCal is that you have access to cities, beaches, mountains, and deserts. Destination L2 charging can bring many of those places within range. I could see this being useful even with a 200 mile EV.

5. Less of a need to use the full charge range, i.e. charge to 100% or fully discharge. By charging wherever it's convenient, we can likely prolong the battery life per Nissan's recommendation to limit charging to 80% when possible.

Over the last few months, we've used public L2 charging (including at Nissan dealers) roughly an average of once per week. This has enabled us to make a number of trips that otherwise would have required the use of an ICE. As a result, the LEAF has become our primary car. It'll get even better when charging is more convenient.
 
I do a ~70 mile round trip drive at least once a week -- sometimes more -- to get from my house to where my horse is, and then back again after riding. A good chunk of that drive is freeway. There's no outlet where I park near the barn, so I couldn't top off at the stables. When I do the trip on a Saturday, that's no problem; I generally charge to full on Friday night. But if I end up with free time some evening during the week and can get out to the horse unexpectedly, I can't guarantee a full charge before I head out.

Luckily, there's a level 2 ChargePoint just by a Fred Meyer not too far from the stables. So if I'm driving back in the evening on a weeknight and feel uncertain about the charge, I plug in at the L2 charger for about an hour and just grab food at Fred Meyer and eat dinner there. Then I go back to the charger and I'm back on my way home.

Sure, a level 3 charger would be even nicer for a quick top-off, but the L2 charger there means I /can/ do the impulsive trip more readily some weeknight, where I might otherwise not have the option if I hadn't fully charged ahead of time.
 
Some editing of your comments:
abasile said:
I believe that public L2 charging is highly desirable, for the following reasons:

1. DC Fast Charging is often what we really want, but realistically it's quite expensive to install and won't be nearly as common as L2 for a number of years.

If one can make use of L2 at a destination/store/whatever, even if for only an hour or two, that can in some cases make the difference as to whether a trip is feasible or not.

2. "Topping up" by way of "opportunity charging" gives one the flexibility to make additional, unplanned sidetrips as the need arises.

3. Less "range anxiety."

4. 70-100 miles of range may be plenty for many, but >>>> destination L2 charging can bring many more places within range. I could see this being useful even with a 200 mile EV.

5. Less of a need to use the full charge range, i.e. charge to 100% or fully discharge, which Nissan clearly states will help prolong the life of your battery.

We've used public L2 charging (including at Nissan dealers) roughly an average of once per week. This has enabled us to make a number of trips that otherwise would have required the use of an ICE. As a result, the LEAF has become our primary car. It'll get even better when charging is more convenient.
+1 on all these points.

I see two basic situations where public charging pays off:

1. Destination charging. The place you want to reach and spend time at (at least an hour) has charging, and you can reach this destination even if it lies outside your comfortable round-trip range. Nissan dealerships are NOT usually your destination. In my own 10 weeks of Leaf ownership, I have tried out public charging at many places, but only one, at Pasadena City College, was located at my destination at which I spent 1.5 hours attending a lecture.

2. In-route charging. Your primary destination does not have charging, or it is likely overloaded (LAX), so you look for one or more places to charge in-route. What I sense is often overlooked in this "opportunity" case is that you might plan your trip to include a meal, extended shopping, or even perhaps a movie if it were available within walking distance of your charging location, so the charging time is not wasted.

Those of us who are doing our best to utilize the Leaf as our primary vehicle need to lobby mall owners, rail and air transit officials, restaurant chains, and town officials to show them that there is a real growing community of potential EV charging customers. Properly located L2 charging can bring in EV customers who would otherwise go somewhere else or not go at all.

When I presented these kind of arguments to an official at Victoria Gardens (a large upscale outdoor mall in Rancho Cucamonga), he replied that they were thinking about EV charging, but only a very small % of his customers would benefit, and he did not know how to assess whether there was sufficient demand. It is true that one charging station (among several) could not be expected at best to supply more than perhaps 30-40 90-minute charges per week without a significant random risk of it being busy when you arrived. However, the cost of the electricity is minimal and the installation cost could be amortized over 5 years or more, so it would seem to me that the increased customer traffic would justify the expense for the right kind of locations.
 
tbleakne, those are nice edits.

I should add one more reason, which has been stated before, for widespread public charging:

6. Reduced fuel consumption in PHEVs. If you have a small battery pack, you'll want to charge every chance you get, to stay in EV mode. This is in everyone's best interest.
 
Packet said:
Luckily, there's a level 2 ChargePoint just by a Fred Meyer not too far from the stables. So if I'm driving back in the evening on a weeknight and feel uncertain about the charge, I plug in at the L2 charger for about an hour and just grab food at Fred Meyer and eat dinner there. Then I go back to the charger and I'm back on my way home.

Thats where L2 chargers belong, commercial places that you spend time at.. it may even motivate you to do some grocery shopping.
 
This is an interesting tread and I have enjoyed reading it. I live in middle Georgia. Warner Robins, is a small town 18 miles south of Macon. The only public charging here is at the Nissan dealers required to install them to become "certified". I find charging to fall into two catogories; 1. Transit charging, & 2. Destination charging.

1. Transit charging. Unlike Souther Cal (I use to live in San Diego while serving in the Navy) nothing is close in middle Georgia. If you want good shows, or real shopping, it's a trip to Atlanta, 90 to 120 miles away depending on where you go in Atlanta. (the beltway around Atlanta (I-285) is just short of 100 miles around). So we could use a network of L3 chargers. To me the best locations would be at each rest stop on the interstate system. Also L3 charging at major truck stops like Flying J would be nice.

2. Destination Charging L2. Once the leaf is upgraded to 6.6kw chargers, this is the area of L2 charging. Where would I put them. Malls, movies, court house, federal buildings, Venues for major functions, Major stores, resturants etc. Places where you might wish or be required to spend two or more hours. Of course the work place would also be nice. Now carefull thought needs to be give as to their placement. You don't want them to be in "prime" parking slots as the ICE drivers will start parking there or at the least start complaining. I'm sure most of us would not mind walking some.

3. Destinatin/Transit charging L1/2: Motel/Hotels. I can see that being a major point for choicing one hotel vice another just like free internet access has become. Even if we are drive an ICE we can complain if L1/L2 charging is not available.

In five to ten years, these public chargers will not be free. I can see parking meters being L2 chargers and you pay for parking and a charge with your credit card, so much per hr of parking, and so much per KWh used to charge.
 
Do we need Level 2s? Yes. Will they be obsolete soon? Yes. Early Leaf owners are the force of people who will drive the future of EVs. You can't have an infrastructure for EVs recharging with a demand for it. We thought we couldn't create a EV market and thus the demand without the infrastructure. Classic chicken and egg. It's not just about our individual needs, it's about driving the market for better and better solutions in the future.

Me personally, I will change my shopping habits and park at Macy's once they install their level 2s. I even plugged in my level 1 at the San Diego convention center while I was there this weekend. Sure, it's a trickle, but it really helped with range anxiety.
 
I don't think level 2 is obsolete. To the leaf, one could maybe argue "maybe" because of its slower charge rate, but if you are running errands around town, 30 minutes to 1 hour at a level 2 can mean a big difference in the amount of stores you can hit up. But consider were level 2 is going, look at the onboard charger with a Tesla or the Mini or hell, even the focus. With faster (and way faster with the mini and tesla) you are starting to boarder DC fast charging. One hour to those cars is a long range extra boost! I think, as tech improves vehicles will come with faster onboard chargers getting better results out of the units. But at the same time, battery density increases still getting use out of a DC fast charge solution.

I think, though, as it stands currently, Level 2 is not totally for us. Its for the businesses. Firstly, you attract some extra traffic by attracting the plug-ins (not much but some). But you get "green cred" which can really increase foot traffic. The cost is miminal when compared to business expenses (2-4k depending). Compare that to a Level 3, which is 50-80k, thats a larger chunk of cash. 2k is a little investment for, a hopefully, increase in traffic and sales.
 
I must say Im angry that Blink is installing lvl 2 public chargers..If i take a 80 - 100 mile trip from the house I don't want to end up finding a lvl 2 charger that will take 5 hours to charge the car before I can get home..

One reason I bought the leaf is because i was told that Blink was going to install lvl 3 chargers through out AZ..

I think Blink (Ecotality) is just trying to put money in their pockes from that $100 million Grant by installing the cheaper L2 chargers in public..
 
mark13 said:
...I think Blink (Ecotality) is just trying to put money in their pockes from that $100 million Grant by installing the cheaper L2 chargers in public..
I think you didn't read their website very carefully. The plan was always to install many more L2 than L3.
 
mark13 said:
I must say Im angry that Blink is installing lvl 2 public chargers..If i take a 80 - 100 mile trip from the house I don't want to end up finding a lvl 2 charger that will take 5 hours to charge the car before I can get home..
And why would you need to do that? Are you planning to drive 80-90 mph all the way? You can go 80 miles easy with no public charging station. You can make up the difference with an hour of charging, give or take. Take a break -- go shopping, get something to eat, read a book, or jump on the 'net.

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
mark13 said:
I must say Im angry that Blink is installing lvl 2 public chargers..If i take a 80 - 100 mile trip from the house I don't want to end up finding a lvl 2 charger that will take 5 hours to charge the car before I can get home..
And why would you need to do that? Are you planning to drive 80-90 mph all the way? You can go 80 miles easy with no public charging station. You can make up the difference with an hour of charging, give or take. Take a break -- go shopping, get something to eat, read a book, or jump on the 'net.

Ray

I think you are missing his point. If he drove 80 miles away, The current leaf would need almost eight hrs to recharge enough to drive back. With an L3 it would just be 30 mins. Taking a break for 30 mins to an hour is no problem, but it's an overnight charge if you are 80 miles away.
 
N952JL said:
I think you are missing his point. If he drove 80 miles away, The current leaf would need almost eight hrs to recharge enough to drive back. With an L3 it would just be 30 mins. Taking a break for 30 mins to an hour is no problem, but it's an overnight charge if you are 80 miles away.
Realistically, if you drive 80 miles you need to do it at 55-60 mph to make it with a bit of buffer.

Then a 30 min - 80% QC is only going to get you another 64 miles. You're going to have to wait another ~30 min to charge to 100% (anyone verify how long it takes to get from 80%-100% on a QC?) to get back home unless there's another QC along the way home you can stop at for 10 minutes.
 
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