Rip-Off charging stations

Hi All! Over at the Volt site we are starting to see an increasing number of once free charging stations (especially from Charge Point) beginning to have hourly fees of $2 - $3/hour and a max of $48 or more per day! Most are in addition to the parking fee for the garage etc.

Needless to say, in most places that is 2000% - 3,000% above actual electricity rates and nearly 3x the cost of gasoline! Some examples are four charging stations at the Brookfield buildings in Houston, the Aventura Mall in Miami, all the Austin Energy stations, 50th St in New York, etc.

As the once free charging stations move to paid stations I am starting to get concerned about the impact of this extremely high premium discouraging adoption.

Yep, and just like wifi in coffee shops, eventually they'll be free again too. Let them charge, but also let them know that you won't use them at such a high price. Eventually they'll figure it out!

It was bound to happen. Is it too soon? Yes, I would say so. And I think we, as LEAF owners, would be happier if we had 6.6kW charging when it comes to the per-hour business models. But on the plus side, it will definitely separate the wheat from the chaff, making it easier for those who need to charge to find available stations.

mwalsh said:

It was bound to happen. Is it too soon? Yes, I would say so. ...

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I think, at those prices, it will never be time. That kind of hourly rate will never attract business.

davewill said:

mwalsh said:

It was bound to happen. Is it too soon? Yes, I would say so. ...

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I think, at those prices, it will never be time. That kind of hourly rate will never attract business.

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I don't disagree that the rates are too high. But if I can spend ~$10 for three hours worth and be sure of getting home (and I'm thinking in terms of Santa Monica for me right now) vs. running out of charge and having to wait on a tow from Nissan....I'm going to spend the $10 every time.

This is good news for people that need to charge. They will have access. But activity will fall off drastically until a market price is reached (~$1/hr). I prefer access to grid-lockout.

mwalsh said:

... (and I'm thinking in terms of Santa Monica for me right now) vs. running out of charge and having to wait on a tow from Nissan....I'm going to spend the $10 every time.

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... Sure for an emergency, but this won't fly if the only business is emergency usage.

Chargepoint is a for-profit business, thats how they make their money to buy more EVSEs.. Starbucks chooses what plan they purchase from Chargepoint, they have several options.. it can range from free charging to very expensive, all up to Starbucks.

Here is a brochure describing the available options to business owners:

http://www.coulombtech.com/files/service-plans-brochure-with-form.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She has nice teeth

mwalsh said:

davewill said:

mwalsh said:

It was bound to happen. Is it too soon? Yes, I would say so. ...

Click to expand...

I think, at those prices, it will never be time. That kind of hourly rate will never attract business.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree that the rates are too high. But if I can spend ~$10 for three hours worth and be sure of getting home (and I'm thinking in terms of Santa Monica for me right now) vs. running out of charge and having to wait on a tow from Nissan....I'm going to spend the $10 every time.

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I'll just take the non-plug in Prius, at least that's a farily clean gas car. As for the general marketplace, charging needs to be funded by the value of displaced foreign oil dependance, cleaner air leading to reduced health cares costs, etc. Everyone benefits from EVs, but EV drivers are saddled with the costs of corporate greed (the parking space is the far larger, predominate cost), and EV drivers are still paying the taxes to have military support to guarantee access to oil. Unfortunately, others may power up their larger less fuel efficient vehicles if they don't have a Prius. So these absurd charging costs will not only hamper EV adoption, they'll cause worse air quality.

I've got an idea - charge EV drivers for charging, but reduce EV drivers tax bills by the subsideis that go to the oil industry and those military expenses that oil incurrs.

Charging will be cheap compared to that refund check. Ooops,,, there I go again, I'm being rational and trying to pay my fair share while not paying the unfare chare for oil. Given industry and political agendas and lobbyist, this is rational but not pragmatic, the oil and defense industries would never let such a rationalization of the costs pass into law...

Let the institution hosting the chargers know how absurd the costs are. Also let them know how totally absurd it will for a Plug In Prius with it's small 13 mile electric only range to ever plug in. A Plug In Prius, looking at the economics, isn't likely to plug in for an hour for $3 to get the equivalent range of 1/4 gallon of gas!! That would equate to buying gas for $12/gallon! And what if you're inside for two hours watching a movie, but your car is close to full and only charges for theity minutes, but you are forced to pay for a full 2 hours?

Encourage them to roll charging costs / funding into the cost of the parking space itself, which is the far greater costs. If parking is free, charging is free. If parking is paid, the charging is included in the cost paid to park which is the same for electric and gas... Or maybe gas should be charged a non-charging parking premium since it hurts everyone's health and sometimes leaves oil spills in the parking lot that the parking owner has to clean up occasionally... Or put it in the marketing / advertising budget of the "green" program at the company.

I'm not really advocating free, but I am advocating charging infratstructure and business models that will encourage adoption of more EVs and that encourage EV drivers to leave the gas car at home whenever the EV will do because it just won't make economic or logcal sense to take the gas burner when the EV can handle the trip.

ElectricVehicle said:

I've got an idea - charge EV drivers for charging, but reduce EV drivers tax bills by the subsideis that go to the oil industry and those military expenses that oil incurrs.

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Yeah, nice theory, theres a few problems with it:

not all oil is used for transportation, some of it is used to pave roads, some of it is used to make plastic, some of it is used to make fertilizer, some of it is used to make electricity. Oil is used in almost every facet of modern life. without oil (which is the cheapest form of energy we have), the planet could not support the 8 Billion people living on it now. And when it runs out, many of those 8 Billion will not survive.

so, it isn't as "simple" as not paying those subsidies, or supporting the military to guard the oil producing areas of the world. China is building up their military, I'll give you one guess as to why.

mitch672 said:

ElectricVehicle said:

I've got an idea - charge EV drivers for charging, but reduce EV drivers tax bills by the subsideis that go to the oil industry and those military expenses that oil incurrs.

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Yeah, nice theory, theres a few problems with it:

not all oil is used for transportation, some of it is used to pave roads, some of it is used to make plastic, some of it is used to make fertilizer, some of it is used to make electricity. Oil is used in almost every facet of modern life. without oil (which is the cheapest form of energy we have), the planet could not support the 8 Billion people living on it now. And when it runs out, many of those 8 Billion will not survive.

so, it isn't as "simple" as not paying those subsidies, or supporting the military to guard the oil producing areas of the world. China is building up their military, I'll give you one guess as to why.

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I'm aware that oil is used to provide many things I use everyday, including transporting food to the grocery store. So we split hairs, by not driving gas, I reduce the oil attributable to me by a substantial factor, say 50%, well take 50% off my subsidies to the oil industry. The precentage varies person to person, with factors like air travel, international shipping of goods, etc. And it would never pass congress anyway... or maybe it will in a few years! Gas is getting a subsudized ride on all of us, even people who don'r own cars or drive pay into gas subsidies... If these issues were practically speaking "simple" to solve, technically, logically, morally and in line with corporate / political objectives - they would already be solved.

EV charging needs a sustainable business model that promotes more EVs and more EV miles driven while covering the costs of charging. Advertising and marketing budgets sustain many things. The company sustains the cost of the parking space for free or as part of a charge.

Just include the EV charging as a no additional cost vs. a gas vehicle of that free or pay to park charge.

I think these L2 Coulomb stations are a total waste and they will drive up the cost electric driving for only mediocre benefit. I can see why you would buy a DC fast charge, but instead of ridiculously priced L2 stations, business owners are better off just paying a local electrician to run a few circuit breakers and 120V GFCIs to the parking spots and then buy $50 worth of signage. For, what, a few hundred dollars the business can easily put in four EV spots. If they really want to charge their customers the 30 cents an hour they use in electricity, they can buy an old fashioned parking meter for around $200. But L2 parking should not, IMO cost more than 50 cents an hour and an outside maximum of $1. Anything beyond that is not a place I will ever park.

SolarExec said:

I think these L2 Coulomb stations are a total waste and they will drive up the cost electric driving for only mediocre benefit. I can see why you would buy a DC fast charge, but instead of ridiculously priced L2 stations, business owners are better off just paying a local electrician to run a few circuit breakers and 120V GFCIs to the parking spots and then buy $50 worth of signage. For, what, a few hundred dollars the business can easily put in four EV spots. If they really want to charge their customers the 30 cents an hour they use in electricity, they can buy an old fashioned parking meter for around $200. But L2 parking should not, IMO cost more than 50 cents an hour and an outside maximum of $1. Anything beyond that is not a place I will ever park.

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Ahh, I like the parking meter idea, then if you charge for EV parking you cna use a standard parking meter and avoid the costs of network connectivity and the typically fairly expensive service plans EV charger providers bundle it with... Of course the parking meter itself is a cost, looks like $500 to $1,000 plus $100 - $200 to install, maybe more for a retro-fit: http://www.taphilo.com/tom/parkingmeters.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SolarExec said:

business owners are better off just paying a local electrician to run a few circuit breakers and 120V GFCIs to the parking spots and then buy $50 worth of signage. For, what, a few hundred dollars the business can easily put in four EV spots.

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This is exactly what my current employer is doing. It works great, in addition to a dozen of regular wall outlets, there is one 240V charging station for those who need an opportunity charge.

Or maybe a regular parking meter, plus a residential grade L2 EVSE for $750. L1 is too slow, except possibly at workplaces and airports. Go for L2, but keep it as simple as possible. Residential grade EVSEs should last plenty long enough; aren't the AV units at the Nissan dealers residential grade?

Anyway, that's what I would try to do if I owned a retail establishment. Cut out the middlemen and keep things really simple. EV charging is not that complex.

abasile said:

Or maybe a regular parking meter, plus a residential grade L2 EVSE for $750. L1 is too slow, except possibly at workplaces and airports. Go for L2, but keep it as simple as possible. Residential grade EVSEs should last plenty long enough; aren't the AV units at the Nissan dealers residential grade?

Anyway, that's what I would try to do if I owned a retail establishment. Cut out the middlemen and keep things really simple. EV charging is not that complex.

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Charging is an interesting beast. 120 Volt is sufficient in some cases, like plugging in for 8 hours at work for a high speed 60 mile round trip commute or a lower speed 90 mile round trip commute. It's a bit cheaper to deploy than 240V and doesn't require as large circuit or you can have 4 120V that use the same circuit size as one 240V. 120V can give you 20 miles during four hours at the mall. 240V at 32A (with 6.6 kW charger) gives 25 miles range/hour of charge, or 12.5 for the LEAF's half sized 3.3 kW. A 240V 70A can give vehicles equipped with 15 kW chargers, like the Tesla can charge at 60+ miles of range per hour of charge.

The 120V or 240V 16A are especially appropriate for Plug In Hybrids, like the Plug In Prius or Volt. Less expense allows you to serve more plug in vehicles, and sometimes the 1or 3 kW is all you need, or all the vehicle can accept.

A couple high rate chargers (J1772 240V 80A, Quick Chargers) are imperative when you are waiting for the charge. If you're doing something else, slower charging rates are fine.

Large sites could have possibly one Quick Charger, a couple J1772 240V 80A stations, a bunch of J1772 240V 32A, and some J1772 120V 16A.

SolarExec said:

Ibut instead of ridiculously priced L2 stations, business owners are better off just paying a local electrician to run a few circuit breakers and 120V GFCIs to the parking spots and then buy $50 worth of signage. For, what, a few hundred dollars the business can easily put in four EV spots. If they really want to charge their customers the 30 cents an hour they use in electricity, they can buy an old fashioned parking meter for around $200.

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This brings up an interesting question I've been meaning to ask. I do believe some spots would benefit from L1 charging, and as you say is very cost effective. However, that generally means "bring your own EVSE." Of course the Leaf, Volt, and Prius all come with their own L1 EVSE. But you run the risk of damage or theft and not to mention it is fairly inconvenient to dig the cable out of the car and unwind it everyday and plug it in.

So it brings up the question. Will we ever see a commercial (or residential) L1 EVSE that could be installed cheaply on existing 110V circuits. Now I'm not talking about a portable unit like comes with the car. I mean a wall-mount or pole-mount unit sort of like the aerovironment unit but support L1. If the cost of such a unit could be under $500 and businesses could use existing electrical infrastructure then the cost of adding a professional looking EVSE that just happens to be an L1 would be pretty reasonable.

Also, I was wondering if it would be possible to do something similar. Lets say you already have some wiring out in a parking lot, but it is just regular guage wire. You don't want to tear up the concrete to lay thicker wires. Couldn't you just re-wire at the breaker-box to make it 220V, but have an EVSE that would limit the amps to 12 amps or something like that? That way you could use existing wiring and get something better than L1, but not quite as good as full L2. (sort of like the Ingineer upgraded EVSE only something wall-mountable and professional looking)

you can do anything, however, no electrician is going to use "existing conduit" and re-purpose wiring, the major cost of these installations is labor and permitting, not the actual EVSE equipment. Installing 120V 15A outlets is not a bad idea, and "bring your own EVSE", however, that is probably not going to happen in most places.

Whats needed is a very low cost EVSE, that is not on any fancy network, doesn't have all of the fancy features etc, and they need to be so common, they are not worth stealing, and cost a few hundred at most, then many more could be installed on 20A 240V circuts, which would be fine for all of the "plug ins", such as the Plug in Prius and the Volt, this would also happen to be all the current generation Leaf can use as well.

mitch672 said:

Whats needed is a very low cost EVSE, that is not on any fancy network, doesn't have all of the fancy features etc, and they need to be so common, they are not worth stealing, and cost a few hundred at most

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Last year around this time I was expecting we would see those appearing on Ebay for about $200, but so far nothing.. perhaps we need a few more BEVs on the markets before the Chinese start flooding Wal-mart with cheap evse.