2011 LEAF stopped charging, 21 DTC's logged

JPWhite said:

I depend on the LEAF to get to work and back so I can't fiddle around with home brew solutions this go around. As a project car that might be the best approach. I just need reliable wheels.

It's unfortunate it went wrong so soon after the extended warranty expired and before I can get my hands on a model 3.

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The manufacturer is Setec Power - they are making commercial quality quick chargers. There is a forum member that has used the charger for 2 years - with the adapter cable (J-1772) also. Here is the link:

http://www.setec-power.com/product/278603-3069417.html

Would be interesting if the quick charging would work even with a failed onboard charger.

91040 said:

You can test the pilot signal line for continuity to see if the diode is bad. If that is the case, a new diode can be inserted into the line which will allow charging and maintain the safety protocol.

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That would be an easy action prior to pulling out the onboard, I'd think.... Also, depending on time constraints, it would not surprise me if the charging unit itself was repairable by a skill electronics tech...the failed sub component might be obvious...

Lastly, not to slight any LEAF techs, but I make darn sure it was indeed the charger and not some other item...

I know very little, but just thinking out loud...

Got the car back today. Took 2 days to get the part..

Labor Cost was $ 605.00 (5.5 hrs)
OBC 296A0-3NA8A was $1,720.35
Label 993B2-3NA0B was $ 12.35

Before taxes it came to $2,337.70

The invoice reports that after diagnostics it was determined the OBC had an internal short.

The repair takes quite a long time once the part is available. Nissan have the tech run the traction battery down to empty prior to replacing the charger and then charging to full using 240v only. They had the OBC replaced by lunchtime yesterday, but due to having to do a full charge from empty, it didn't complete charging until 6:30 last night after they had closed up for the night.

Since I have also had to fork out for a new traction battery as well the LEAF is now one of the most expensive cars to maintain that I've owned. I've tracked the costs of all my cars for the last 25 years. The LEAF maintenance cost now comes in at 11c per mile, my gassers have on average cost 9c mile.

Myth Busted: EV's are not cheaper to maintain than gas cars thanks to the high component prices.

I see online discounters sell the OBC for $1364

https://www.nissanpartsdeal.com/parts/nissan-charger-asmy~296a0-3na8a.html

JPWhite said:

Myth Busted: EV's are not cheaper to maintain than gas cars thanks to the high component prices.

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...IF you're unlucky.

Yes, some of the specialized parts are expensive. And, yes, you're sort of locked into dealership servicing due to a relative lack of independent options. So if you're unlucky then keeping your EV going could be an expensive proposition.

However, after looking at that part on the Internets and the r/r procedure in the manual it does not look to be a massively daunting a task for the DIY'er. So with a diagnostic fee to have Nissan tell me what the problem was and a bit of luck (eBay or car-part.com) purchasing the part, it could be done for as little as $700 to $1000:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-NISSAN...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

I'm not sure it was necessary to completely discharge the battery pack. Belt and suspenders, sure, but the shop manual only calls for disconnecting the HV circuit by removing service plug and disconnecting the 12v battery (naturally while wearing proper protective clothing). But, note to self, if I'm going to have such work done...deliver vehicle to the dealership almost fully discharged so they can get on it right away.

mwalsh said:

JPWhite said:

Myth Busted: EV's are not cheaper to maintain than gas cars thanks to the high component prices.

Click to expand...

...IF you're unlucky.

Yes, some of the specialized parts are expensive. And, yes, you're sort of locked into dealership servicing due to a relative lack of independent options. So if you're unlucky then keeping your EV going could be an expensive proposition.

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I agree I was unlucky. However everyone's luck will run out eventually.

What makes my situation particularly unlucky is that the failure occurred 6 months after the warranty expired. 6 years of trouble free driving and it decided to fail now. That was unlucky.

However once a LEAF is out of warranty it's just a question of time before a major component fails. The LEAF has at least 4 expensive critical components to fail. Battery, Charger, Motor, Inverter. There maybe others, such as computer components. Less critical, the headunit is over $2,000, but the LEAF can be driven without the display. Out of the four major components I identified, I've had to replace two of them already at just 6 years of age. The battery and the OBC. I now realize EV's are at a higher risk of expensive repairs due to the higher number of high dollar components in the drivetrain.

Despite having the car serviced per manufacturers schedule, this does not reduce the chance of electrical component failure. Many of the components are non serviceable. It's very different to a more mechanical car where diligent servicing does maximize a vehicle's lifespan.

I'm sure once EV's are mainstream, repair costs will trend down as 3rd party parts are made available and 3rd party repair shops can work on vehicles. I would also expect that manufacturers will be able to make components that are more reliable than their current offerings.

Given the high repair costs of multiple components, running an EV out of warranty is, as of today, a bigger financial gamble than a traditional car.

JPWhite said:

Given the high repair costs of multiple components, running an EV out of warranty is, as of today, a bigger financial gamble than a traditional car.

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I feel your pain, but I totally disagree with that statement.
Anyone who's been on this forum (as much as we both have) the last few years can easily see that--by and large--EV's are incredibly "cheap" to operate (battery pack issues are for another discussion). Only 1 of the 4 systems you mentioned (motor) has a substantial "mechanical" component that can be compared to a traditional (ICE) car. In fact, most of the systems have a traditional "electrical" life-cycle, with infant mortality being the biggest problem (remember all the early-failure resistance heaters?).
Having said all that, I took out an extended warranty (7 yrs/70k miles) on my Leaf at time of purchase because I considered it new, unproven, (mostly) single-sourced technology. Based on personal experience--and looking at the big picture--I think one of the big selling points of EVs (and why I believe car dealers don't make any $$ off of them) is that they are a lower financial gamble than traditional (ICE) cars.

Stanton said:

JPWhite said:

Given the high repair costs of multiple components, running an EV out of warranty is, as of today, a bigger financial gamble than a traditional car.

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I feel your pain, but I totally disagree with that statement.
Anyone who's been on this forum (as much as we both have) the last few years can easily see that--by and large--EV's are incredibly "cheap" to operate (battery pack issues are for another discussion). Only 1 of the 4 systems you mentioned (motor) has a substantial "mechanical" component that can be compared to a traditional (ICE) car. In fact, most of the systems have a traditional "electrical" life-cycle, with infant mortality being the biggest problem (remember all the early-failure resistance heaters?).
Having said all that, I took out an extended warranty (7 yrs/70k miles) on my Leaf at time of purchase because I considered it new, unproven, (mostly) single-sourced technology. Based on personal experience--and looking at the big picture--I think one of the big selling points of EVs (and why I believe car dealers don't make any $$ off of them) is that they are a lower financial gamble than traditional (ICE) cars.

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I subscribed to your logic too until recently.

I think we will have to wait until we have enough data from LEAF's as they age more. I've kept detailed records for all the cars I've owned since we came to the US in 1992. The LEAF has a maintenance cost of 11c/mile right now. The average of all the cars I've owned is 9c/mile. The cheapest car to maintain I've ever owned is a '93 Escort wagon, with a cost of 4c/mile over 123,000 miles. The most expensive has been our 2007 Altima at 20c/mile, the Altima is an outlier because its only been driven 41,000 miles over 10 years, it's only 1 mile to my wife's workplace.

My statement regarding EV maintenance costs isn't simply an emotional reaction to recent events, I have the data to support my experience. It's true that I am only one data point. Time will tell how other high mileage LEAF's fair.

JPWhite said:

I think we will have to wait until we have enough data from LEAF's as they age more. I've kept detailed records for all the cars I've owned since we came to the US in 1992. The LEAF has a maintenance cost of 11c/mile right now. The average of all the cars I've owned is 9c/mile. The cheapest car to maintain I've ever owned is a '93 Escort wagon, with a cost of 4c/mile over 123,000 miles. The most expensive has been our 2007 Altima at 20c/mile, the Altima is an outlier because its only been driven 41,000 miles over 10 years, it's only 1 mile to my wife's workplace.

My statement regarding EV maintenance costs isn't simply an emotional reaction to recent events, I have the data to support my experience. It's true that I am only one data point. Time will tell how other high mileage LEAF's fair.

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I would be interested to know your maintenance calculation without the new battery pack as it has obviously skewed the numbers in this case. While it's the biggest single component of any EV, it shouldn't be considered "normal maintenance"...even for a Leaf!

Stanton said:

I would be interested to know your maintenance calculation without the new battery pack as it has obviously skewed the numbers in this case. While it's the biggest single component of any EV, it shouldn't be considered "normal maintenance"...even for a Leaf!

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Sure thing. I reduced the cost of the battery replacement to zero, and the cost for the LEAF dropped to 8c/mile, so a smidgen lower than my average of 9c/mile. FYI Adding the miles driven for all my vehicles it comes to 622,488 miles of maint data, so the LEAF represents approximately 1/6th of the overall average.

From my perspective I consider maintenance anything I pay out for the upkeep of the vehicle. I exclude insurance, fuel, collision repair and depreciation from my maintenance calculations. Talking of which the LEAF's depreciation comes to 21c/mile compared to a "JP Fleet" average of 7c/mile. Kinda unfair on the LEAF as its the only new car I've ever purchased so depreciation is bound to be high, especially compared to some of the jalopies I've driven when the kids were young and a drain my finances

Your maintenance costs for the Leaf are similar to your other vehicles if you consider the battery replacement cost as part of fuel cost instead of repair cost. For me, battery replacement cost is 10 cents per mile maximum (assume 60,000 miles and $6,000) and my electricity cost for charging at home off peak is 2 cents per mile making total fuel cost 12 cents per mile maximum (I expect lizard battery to last longer than 60,000 miles since it still has 11 capacity bars at 43,000 miles).

If I have failure of inverter, converter, or charger after warranty expiration, I will disassemble the defective unit to see if component level repair is feasible. The electric motor should easily last the life of the car. Dealers will just replaced modules so dealer repairs will always be expensive.

GerryAZ said:

Your maintenance costs for the Leaf are similar to your other vehicles if you consider the battery replacement cost as part of fuel cost instead of repair cost. For me, battery replacement cost is 10 cents per mile maximum (assume 60,000 miles and $6,000) and my electricity cost for charging at home off peak is 2 cents per mile making total fuel cost 12 cents per mile maximum (I expect lizard battery to last longer than 60,000 miles since it still has 11 capacity bars at 43,000 miles).

If I have failure of inverter, converter, or charger after warranty expiration, I will disassemble the defective unit to see if component level repair is feasible. The electric motor should easily last the life of the car. Dealers will just replaced modules so dealer repairs will always be expensive.

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That's an interesting way to look at the battery as offsetting fuel savings. In my case when considering the LEAF I offset the the fuel savings against the higher purchase price of the EV compared to equivalent alternatives. Either interpretation is valid enough. It's financial swings and roundabouts.

Nissan themselves do not consider the battery to be a component that should need replacing during the life of the vehicle.

In an interview with Chelsea Sexton in 2012 Andy Palmer said
"When we developed the motor car we couldn't imagine a scenario where you replaced the battery."

Earlier in the same year Mark Perry said in a official video.
"Some people are always worried about (and I understand the worry) that I'm going to have to replace their entire battery pack, the chances of that happening are almost zero."

Of course we know differently now regarding the LEAF battery pack. I do believe Nissan were being sincere when they stated the battery is good for the life of the car. Their sincere expectations were just wrong.

Your estimate of 10c/mile as an offset to fuel savings is pretty much on the money. Like you I average 2c/mile for the electricity and have saved 10c/mile compared to my previous gasoline vehicle for the same mileage. I track the cost of electricity and the price of gas monthly in my region and to try and get as close as I can to "actual" savings for the miles I actually drive each month.

Great that you will attempt component level repairs as necessary. Back in the day I would do things like replacing brushes, solenoids or bearings in starter motors. Alas thanks to degenerative back disease my days turning a wrench are over. I get my car fixed like the "normals" now.

JPWhite said:

...
My statement regarding EV maintenance costs isn't simply an emotional reaction to recent events, I have the data to support my experience. It's true that I am only one data point. Time will tell how other high mileage LEAF's fair.

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That is, by definition, an anecdote, not data.

JPWhite said:

Stanton said:

I would be interested to know your maintenance calculation without the new battery pack as it has obviously skewed the numbers in this case. While it's the biggest single component of any EV, it shouldn't be considered "normal maintenance"...even for a Leaf!

Click to expand...

Sure thing. I reduced the cost of the battery replacement to zero, and the cost for the LEAF dropped to 8c/mile, so a smidgen lower than my average of 9c/mile. FYI Adding the miles driven for all my vehicles it comes to 622,488 miles of maint data, so the LEAF represents approximately 1/6th of the overall average.

From my perspective I consider maintenance anything I pay out for the upkeep of the vehicle. I exclude insurance, fuel, collision repair and depreciation from my maintenance calculations. Talking of which the LEAF's depreciation comes to 21c/mile compared to a "JP Fleet" average of 7c/mile. Kinda unfair on the LEAF as its the only new car I've ever purchased so depreciation is bound to be high, especially compared to some of the jalopies I've driven when the kids were young and a drain my finances

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Interesting: I had assumed fuel (or the equivalent electricity) to be part of the calculation; after all, that's where most of the monthly operational cost is. In any event, I would have expected the battery pack to have a bigger impact as well.

I did call Consumer Affairs regarding out-of-warranty assistance.

It was a Hail Mary but guess what!! I scored

Nissan have agreed to refund $1,000 out of the $2,518 repair bill.

The initial call didn't start well, the agent asked me the miles on the odometer and when I said 107,000 he repeated it back to me "107,000" !?! with a incredulous tone. I pointed out my extended warranty had just run out recently and on top of that only 8 months ago had to fork out for a new battery. That seemed to work well enough.

The next sticky point was when I shared that I had paid for the repair already. 'We can't offer out of warranty assistance then' was the answer, 'why did you do that?'. I pointed out due to the nature of the fault I had only 10 miles left when I arrived at the dealer and no way to charge the car. I couldn't wait for a warranty consideration determination.

Once we got over those two stumbling blocks I got my case number and things went very well after that. They got copies of the two bills from the dealer and gave me the good news today.

Thank you Mr Nissan.

91040 said:

You can test the pilot signal line for continuity to see if the diode is bad. If that is the case, a new diode can be inserted into the line which will allow charging and maintain the safety protocol.

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Is there a pointer to instructions for this activity? Everything I'm now experiencing with my 2011 charging points to a faulty diode. But as much as I read about this pesky thing, I have no idea where it is, nor how easy it is to access and test.

I'm not convinced that the diode offers any extra "safety" here, but regardless, if the EVSE checks for it, the diode needs to be happy and healthy. Mine doesn't seem to be (and is thus giving my Clipper Creek units fits!) and I seem to have been the most current victim of the dreaded GE ChargeStation units.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/07/dead-leafs-and-ge-chargers/

Set a multimeter to check for resistance.

Connect one probe to the ground and one to the pilot line of the Jplug receiver in the car.

Then reverse the probes.

If good, in one direction it should read low resistance and in the other high resistance.

If fixable by insertion of a diode in the pilot, it will read low resistance in both directions.

If there is unlimited resistance in both directions, the onboard charger will need to be replaced unless you remove it, access a circuit board and replace the surface mount diode.

With a blown diode, you can still do L2 charging with any EVSE that does not do the diode check, i.e. the original Nissan branded AV units or an OpenEVSE with that check disabled. CHAdeMO is not affected.

I would not expect the diode to function intermittently as your problem indicates. Then again, I am not an EE.

Edited text is in bold font.

Thanks for the help here. I'll test it tomorrow when I'm next home.

As for the intermittent nature - everybody agrees. Though the smart folks at Clipper Creek certainly count a "failing" (vs failed) diode as a possibility. And we've all likely discovered things that have failed in ways that nobody previously expected. For me personally, it seems to be a regular thing...

Answer: No resistance in either direction.

And the "intermittent" aspect has disappeared. The Leaf will not charge From my HCS-40, my CS-40 nor my little 120V Clipper Creek unit (can't recall the model number). All three units give a charge fault. The Nissan-branded AV unit that came with the car, however, works great.

First call tomorrow is to Nissan. unless... there is an easy way for me to add a proper diode to the inlet??

darelldd said:

Answer: No resistance in either direction.

And the "intermittent" aspect has disappeared. The Leaf will not charge From my HCS-40, my CS-40 nor my little 120V Clipper Creek unit (can't recall the model number). All three units give a charge fault. The Nissan-branded AV unit that came with the car, however, works great.

First call tomorrow is to Nissan. unless... there is an easy way for me to add a proper diode to the inlet??

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I doubt that Nissan will do anything except replace the onboard charger at your expense (if you insist) since the car will charge on their AV unit (and probably on the 120-volt Nissan unit that came with the car). Perhaps someone who has added an external diode between the charging port and onboard charger will provide detailed instructions.