2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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SageBrush said:
rcm4453 said:
You just admitted right there that the battery is a POS and it's going to degrade too fast no matter the owner's care, climate or use! So knowing this why would anyone that's remotely intelligent keep wasting their time setting charge timers every day?!
Read the following V E R Y slowly, as many times as you need:

Temperature severely affects the LEAF pack. If you want to extend the life of your car, you may HAVE to learn basic arithmetic. Or at least ask a 4rth grader in your neighborhood to make a table for you.
Simple solution, turn your garage into a refrigerator. Use it to store your beer and your car.
 
SageBrush said:
rcm4453 said:
You just admitted right there that the battery is a POS and it's going to degrade too fast no matter the owner's care, climate or use! So knowing this why would anyone that's remotely intelligent keep wasting their time setting charge timers every day?!
Read the following V E R Y slowly, as many times as you need:

Temperature severely affects the LEAF pack. If you want to extend the life of your car, you may HAVE to learn basic arithmetic. Or at least ask a 4rth grader in your neighborhood to make a table for you.


You can't have it both ways! You just got done saying the battery degrades too fast no matter what the owner's care is! So what exactly is there to gain by babying a bad battery? So why has the battery degraded fast despite many people on this forum including myself using charge timers? I stopped as soon as I realized my effort was futile, no amount of babying or using charge timers is going to save this 30 kwh battery.

You keep misunderstanding my point, if it was a good battery and babying it stopped the premature degradation then sure using charge timers is worth it, that's obviously not the case here! I have a complete understanding of what causes degradation in a healthy properly designed/manufactured battery. In a properly designed system using GOOD Panasonic or LG cells with a robust active TMS there's no need for charge timers, a hilltop mode or 80%/90% long battery life mode is all that's required, think Tesla or Bolt EV.

All I was doing was making four key points:


- The 30 kwh battery is bad and degrades way too fast despite people doing all the right things (including using charge timers)

- Because this is the case there's no point in babying the battery, no saving it!

- The consumer shouldn't have to worry about battery temp, charge timers...etc in the first place. In a properly designed BEV such as the Bolt
EV or a Tesla you don't have to worry about any of that stuff. The consumer shouldn't have to pay the price for Nissan's screw up.

- Consumers are not morons or lazy just because they don't want to bother with jumping through unnecessary hoops because Nissan didn't
design their vehicle right. Why should they when they can buy a BEV that was designed right? That doesn't make them morons it makes
them smart!


You seem to be the ONLY member on this thread who disagrees with these four points........why is that?
 
rcm4453 said:
So what exactly is there to gain by babying a bad battery?
LEAF battery degradation is not binary. It spans not good, to terrible. Some of the difference is not in the owner's control and some is.

I choose to baby my battery and expect it to last another 5 years for our use. That is pretty poor, but better than it would be if I ignored those things in my control that accelerate degradation.

I presume you know this, but perhaps you really are just that stupid. More likely you are rationalizing neglect and acting like a spoiled brat:
"I don't want to!!"
"I shouldn't have to!!"
"It's too hard!!"

Whatever, play the victim.

I prefer to make the best of my choices. I should say though that my battery is on the better side of the LEAF spectrum, I don't have the longer warranty, and I do not live in a hot climate or force the car into a demanding use profile so it is easier for me to avoid a fatalistic behavior pattern. I might succumb if I owned a totally **** 30 kWh battery and expected battery replacement under warranty, but rest assured I would not be here whining that a charger timer is a burdensome science project.
 
johnlocke said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
johnlocke said:
Interesting. How much difference is there between the Leaf Spy % and the dash % at various charge levels? If you could, when you get a chance, post the voltage at LBW. Since that's a fixed charge level (50 GID's) it would interesting to know how battery degradation affects that number. I used the dashboard % because it's available even if Leaf Spy isn't running. I normally don't run Leaf Spy except to check on the SOH , AH, and GID's numbers after I charge. I just thought it would be interesting to see what the actual voltage levels were at various states of charge. Why guess if you can get real world numbers!

I think LeafSpy is going by voltage? In the above case, 97.6% SOC (329 GIDs) is 100% on the dash, while 27.3% SOC (74 GIDs) was 20% on the dash.
We should probably ask Turbo3 about that since he wrote Leaf Spy. I'd like to know what SOC actually measures and why it shows 97.6% at full charge?

Update: I e-mailed Turbo3. The answer is: SOC represents the actual state of charge of the battery as reported by the BMS. The Dashboard % is an adjusted value that takes into account Nissan's safety margins for charge and discharge limits. SOC is absolute capacity while Dash % is useable capacity. Turns out that this is buried in the help file for Leaf Spy. My bad.

Okay, I didn't reach LBW, but came pretty close at 53GIDs. LeafSpy reported SOC of 21.2%, while dash showed 15%.

338.84V (pack)
3.53V (cell)

So with my "healthier" battery, it seems I have more access to the lower voltages?
 
SageBrush said:
rcm4453 said:
So what exactly is there to gain by babying a bad battery?
LEAF battery degradation is not binary. It spans not good, to terrible. Some of the difference is not in the owner's control and some is.

I choose to baby my battery and expect it to last another 5 years for our use. That is pretty poor, but better than it would be if I ignored those things in my control that accelerate degradation.

I presume you know this, but perhaps you really are just that stupid. More likely you are rationalizing neglect and acting like a spoiled brat:
"I don't want to!!"
"I shouldn't have to!!"
"It's too hard!!"

Whatever, play the victim.

I prefer to make the best of my choices. I should say though that my battery is on the better side of the LEAF spectrum, I don't have the longer warranty, and I do not live in a hot climate or force the car into a demanding use profile so it is easier for me to avoid a fatalistic behavior pattern. I might succumb if I owned a totally **** 30 kWh battery and expected battery replacement under warranty, but rest assured I would not be here whining that a charger timer is a burdensome science project.



You sure are the most condescending, judgmental person I've ever had the displeasure of arguing with! You have this "it's your way or the highway" mentality and if anyone does things differently or has a different viewpoint then you they are automatically "stupid, a moron, lazy or a spoiled brat" in your eyes! Is this how folks are in Colorado? We're you a drill sergeant in the military? You sure act like one!


Anyway, you obviously aren't opened minded enough to ever admit or agree that just maybe there's a design flaw with the Leaf, more so the 30 kwh version, which requires the consumer to have to do things they shouldn't have to do had it been designed right in the first place. I merely pointing this fact out and for WHATEVER reason(s) this is rubbing you the wrong way! Why can't you be a normal, rational person about it and just admit this?! Something like: "Yeah you're right, had Nissan used better cells like Panasonic/LG and had an active TMS we wouldn't be seeing all this degradation." Plus we wouldn't even have to bother with battery temp monitoring and setting charge timers as a work around solution to Nissan's epic failure in engineering/design choices. But.....Noooooo....not you! For some reason being opened minded plus having a sense of logic and reason is not your strong suit! It's almost as if you are defending the Leaf? As if you were one of the top engineers for it's wonderfully designed battery system?

A little automotive history:

Prior to the year 1912, people had to "hand-crank" their engines to get them started. I'm sure it sucked! This is whats equivalent of us EV enthusiasts manually trying to extend the battery life in our Leafs by setting charge timers every day.

Then by 1920 and beyond electric starters were pretty much used across all manufacturers , YAY! No more hand-cranking to start our engines! This is equivalent to a properly designed BEV like a Tesla or Bolt EV as the consumer is no longer required to try and MANUALLY extend the life of their battery by setting charge timers ever day.

How is this relevant you say? Just wait.....it's coming....well for all the normal, rational people the electric starter is perceived as a Great thing! Makes life a little easier. But for someone like you, people who think their car should have an electric starter are all "WHINERS......LAZY.....STUPID.....MORONS......or just plain SPOILED BRATS!

It's a good thing 99.9999999999% of the population doesn't think the way you do or we'd all be in BIG TROUBLE! :shock:
 
rcm4453 said:
It's a good thing 99.9999999999% of the population doesn't think the way you do or we'd all be in BIG TROUBLE!
I'll summarize your posts for an epitaph:

Here lies a lifelong whiner and victim
Dumber than a door knob, and proud of it
A Self-proclaimed bedrock of America!
 
SageBrush said:
rcm4453 said:
It's a good thing 99.9999999999% of the population doesn't think the way you do or we'd all be in BIG TROUBLE!
I'll summarize your posts for an epitaph:

Here lies a lifelong whiner and victim
Dumber than a door knob, and proud of it
A Self-proclaimed bedrock of America!

What a lame comeback!

But as long as you took it to this level....

Better than being a total douche and self-proclaimed total As#hole of America!!!
 
This thread will soon have 1,000 posts. Lots of noise.

Anyway, thought I would report in on my 2017 Leaf S purchased 7/27/2017. Built 04/17. I'm in Phoenix but it was shipped in from Oregon, from what I understand soon prior to my purchase (there were running a 10K deal here in July); in other words, I don't believe it was sitting around here this summer before i bought it.

I have an openevse and mostly charge it to, say, 65% when it runs down to 30%. I've charged it to 100% a few times...
I never let it sit around at high charge.

It doesn't get driven at highway / high speeds very much, just a few miles at time a few times a week. The battery temp gauge doesn't get particularly high. I think it went to 9 bars once. We just have very high average temps.

Here's the report from LeafSpy when i first got Leafspy, and the most recent:

Code:
08/06/2017
Odo 292 
AHr 80.847	
SOH 100%	
Hx 96.6

11/17/2017
Odo 2727.2
Ahr 70.348	
SOH 88%	
Hx 84.95
 
Ebeighe, I live (seven months of the year) in Tucson and wish to buy an EV, thus I "lurk" on this forum a good deal. Seeing that you're are in Phoenix, your comments on your Leaf's battery life are important to me. You showed a significant loss in SoH from 100% to 88% in around four months of gentle use!!

Am I to understand this is a permanent reduction of 12% (SoH) in just a few months of use? If so, that's brutal.

Could you expand on your observations on your Leaf's battery history a bit more for me?

Thanks,

Rich
Green Valley AZ/Cape Cod MA
 
RichCapeCod said:
Could you expand on your observations on your Leaf's battery history a bit more for me?
Not really, I'm pretty new at this!
Lots of possibilities and theories of course:
bad batch of batteries,
chemistry need to be tweaked,
jamming 30kw worth of batteries into the same space as 24kw was a bad idea.

Best case, by the time my degradation warrantee kicks in, Nissan will have figured something out.
Worst case is i'll get multiple replacements over the 8 years; and once the car is about 9 years old it will not be very practical, though short range doesn't bother me too much as I'm used to bicycle.

Really like the car, though. our first EV.
 
Ebeighe, that's pretty disheartening! Would you have been better off with the Bolt and its battery temperature control system? Hindsight being 20-20 and all!

Rich
 
I can still lease a 2017 leaf with the options I want, marked down to $30k, but I'm looking at cars built in March of 2017. I think I'd have to be crazy to choose one of those over a Bolt, even though I prefer the Leaf...
 
RichCapeCod said:
Ebeighe, that's pretty disheartening! Would you have been better off with the Bolt and its battery temperature control system? Hindsight being 20-20 and all!

Rich
Bolt battery degradation is unknown, and the GM warranty replacement at under 60% capacity is nothing to swoon over.
 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan.leaf.owners.group/permalink/1705601232844044/ has report of losing their 3rd capacity bar at 10,365 miles on a '16 SV.

The OP of that thread said they've been in NC for a month and that they and the Leaf previously resided in AZ.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
johnlocke said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
I think LeafSpy is going by voltage? In the above case, 97.6% SOC (329 GIDs) is 100% on the dash, while 27.3% SOC (74 GIDs) was 20% on the dash.
We should probably ask Turbo3 about that since he wrote Leaf Spy. I'd like to know what SOC actually measures and why it shows 97.6% at full charge?

Update: I e-mailed Turbo3. The answer is: SOC represents the actual state of charge of the battery as reported by the BMS. The Dashboard % is an adjusted value that takes into account Nissan's safety margins for charge and discharge limits. SOC is absolute capacity while Dash % is useable capacity. Turns out that this is buried in the help file for Leaf Spy. My bad.

Okay, I didn't reach LBW, but came pretty close at 53GIDs. LeafSpy reported SOC of 21.2%, while dash showed 15%.

338.84V (pack)
3.53V (cell)

So with my "healthier" battery, it seems I have more access to the lower voltages?
Seems likely. I ran the battery down to LBW this morning. 19% and 345 VDC. SOC was 24%. 49 GID's just as I was pulling in the driveway. It could just be the BMS though since the cell voltages are only 60 mv apart. You do show a slightly higher capacity at a lower voltage than I do.
 
ebeighe said:
RichCapeCod said:
Could you expand on your observations on your Leaf's battery history a bit more for me?
Not really, I'm pretty new at this!
Lots of possibilities and theories of course:
bad batch of batteries,
chemistry need to be tweaked,
jamming 30kw worth of batteries into the same space as 24kw was a bad idea.

Best case, by the time my degradation warrantee kicks in, Nissan will have figured something out.
Worst case is i'll get multiple replacements over the 8 years; and once the car is about 9 years old it will not be very practical, though short range doesn't bother me too much as I'm used to bicycle.

Really like the car, though. our first EV.
A couple of observations come to mind here. First is that if this is occurring on '17's it's not a bad batch of batteries. The second is that your loss of capacity might be temporary. With the charging habits you describe, the pack might not be getting rebalanced properly. You might want to try charging to 100% a few times in a row and run it down to less than 40% between charges. See if that improves the capacity.
 
The bad batch theory is definitely out. Next suspect, BMS? Is the steeper fast charge profile the guilty party? Would seem not since I did a LOT of that.

Cell tweak gone awry? That is plausible but seems that Nissan would have figured out a way of testing cells in a more realistic way after 7 years...
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
The bad batch theory is definitely out.

You know this as fact based on your overall rigorous analysis of all potential factors and can arrive at a conclusion, right? Please!
 
lorenfb said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
The bad batch theory is definitely out.

You know this as fact based on your overall rigorous analysis of all potential factors and can arrive at a conclusion, right? Please!

My statement was based only due to the inability to prove otherwise at a level you could accept. To say anything else would resulted in another 2 week sideways tread...

Been there, done that.
 
SageBrush said:
RichCapeCod said:
Ebeighe, that's pretty disheartening! Would you have been better off with the Bolt and its battery temperature control system? Hindsight being 20-20 and all!

Rich
Bolt battery degradation is unknown, and the GM warranty replacement at under 60% capacity is nothing to swoon over.
OTOH, GM/LG Chem does have a excellent track record with the Volt and its active TMS, and a hard warranty of 60% (of 238 miles) is a hell of a lot more reliable than "4 bars" whose (unstated) value related to % of original capacity remaining can be freely changed whenever and as often as Nissan chooses to do so. As it is, we don't know how Nissan will warranty capacity on the 2018's, but based on their past behavior I'm not hopeful that they'll finally provide a hard number.
 
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