2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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DaveinOlyWA said:
johnlocke said:
LeftieBiker said:
Given this, I suggest you drive it hard and leave it at 100% when it's more convenient to do so. Either you get a new battery for free or you turn it in and get a better car. If it isn't leased, though, it may be hard to sell with 10 or 9 bars...
Like an Idiot I bought instead of leasing. With as many miles as I drive, A lease didn't seem to be any better than a purchase and It did have a 100K warranty after all. I expected that the battery might fail around 80-85K and I'd get a replacement and another 80K out of the car before junking it. If I'm lucky, the battery will fail around 90-95K and I'll get a third battery for free. If not, then I'll get rid of it at 100K anyway.


Kinda funny because I was in your situation as well. (my 2016 amassed 30,000 miles in less than 14 months) but if you can survive the 8¼ bar life, you actually will make out VERY well especially if you can do it twice before 100K... Hard to beat that benefit.

As for my 2018? I have changed to a MUCH easier life (3-5 hours per day in the car was affecting my health in a very bad way) and I basically did so because I could easily make a 150 mile car work even if it degraded to 8¼ bars (AKA about 100 miles... :) )

So my hope is to have 90% of my original capacity at 100 Kmiles or be on pack #2.... Either way is fine for me.

What would be a nightmare would be at 8¾ bars (8¼ bars is something I would not allow to happen)
Eight bars for me would give me a 75 mile range max. A more practical number would be 65 miles and I drive 55 miles daily. Any extra errands means a charge in town. The real problem is that the last 12 miles are all uphill with nowhere to recharge until I get home. If I get 2 miles/KWH on that stretch I'm doing good. Pulling into the driveway at 8-10% charge was not unusual. I don't think that the car would be usable below the 8 bar mark for me. If I could replace the battery with a 40KWH one at a reasonable cost that might work OK. There are going to be a lot of options soon and I don't think spending $7-8K on a new battery is one of them.
 
Dec update. 355 GID's, 77.55AH, SOH 97.57%, Hx 87.98%, 53309 mi (8380 mi on new battery) 122 (8) L3, 1033 (159) L2. After 5 1/2 months the battery has lost almost 6% capacity according to reported AH readings. Same for SOH. So far it appears to be tracking right along side the old battery. Software update hasn't made any difference as far as I can see.
 
Has anyone taken a 30kWh to turtle after the software update and checked SOH following a L2/L3 recharge?
I'm not necessarily recommending anyone do this to their very expensive battery but it would be interesting.
 
2017 Leaf in Minnesota: "nothing interesting going-on up here":
  • 5 months, 3k miles, 96% SOH
  • 10.3 months, 6.4k miles, 93% SOH
  • (BMS recall done at 12 month service)
  • 14.5 months, 9k miles, 97% SOH
  • 16.5 months, 10.3k miles, 97.7% SOH (it may have gone up due to winter)

Regarding observed range, I was seeing about what I'd expect using Tony Williams charts for 97% SOH last fall (70F, batt. aged 13 months).
 
specialgreen said:
2017 Leaf in Minnesota: "nothing interesting going-on up here":
  • 5 months, 3k miles, 96% SOH
  • 10.3 months, 6.4k miles, 93% SOH
  • (BMS recall done at 12 month service)
  • 14.5 months, 9k miles, 97% SOH
  • 16.5 months, 10.3k miles, 97.7% SOH (it may have gone up due to winter)

Regarding observed range, I was seeing about what I'd expect using Tony Williams charts for 97% SOH last fall (70F, batt. aged 13 months).


That is remarkably similar to my stats on my 2017 S here in CO. By the time I got LeafSpy a few months purchase, the SOH was around 96% then it dropped to 92.5% in a few more months and then back to 97.x% after the reset at 1 year old. I haven't checked it lately but I'll do that soon to see how it's doing. My needs are so small that it doesn't really matter so I don't check it that often. I'm currently at 88xx 'free' miles since charging for free is very easy for me.
 
===================== 3 year Summary ===========
Dec. 2015
P = Purchased 12/10/15, ODO 5
D = Delivered (from GA via dolly) 12/15/15, 79% battery charge, ODO 13

1/28/16 * 1st Leafspy Use
AR=74.5
SOH=93%
HX=89.12
GIDS=354

12/15/15 Anniversary, ODO 4,899
AHr=68.54
SOH 86%
185 GIDs

1/28/17 ODO 5,593 *2nd Leafspy Reading Anniversary
AHr=66.69
SOH 83%
191 GIDs
Hx=81.21
10 QC / 112 L1/L2)

3/17/17 1st bar gone, AHr=64.97, SOH 81%, Hx 79.63, 10 QC, 139 L1/L2
1st bar RETURNS (I really did think it was gone!) 3/19/17
SOH=82%, Ahr=53.52, GIDS=256, Hx=79.82%
3/17/17 28% to 100%, ODO 6,084, reset Trip B) 60.6
1st bar gone, AHr=64.97, SOH 81%, Hx 79.63, 10 QC, 139 L1/L2
3/19/17 1st bar RETURNS (briefly)
SOH=82%, Ahr=53.52, GIDS=256, Hx=79.82%
3/22/17 Back to 11 bars battery capacity
ODO 6,157, AHr=65.42, Hx=80.04, SOH=82%
3/23/17 29% to 100%, ODO 6,170, reset Trip B) 85.9
1st still gone, AHr=65.42, SOH 81%, Hx 80.04 (photo taken)
3/28/17 23% to 100%, ODO 6,264, reset Trip B) 93.8


11/2/17 ODO 10,367 (at 2pm) 2nd Bar Loss [10 Capacity Bars]
93.6 SOC
Ah=54.54 (climbed to 58.25 after driving)
257 GIDs
HX=72.99
14 QCs
276 L1/L2

6/26/18 reprogramming battery controller ODO 13,518
GIDS 242 (67.8%)
AHr 57.893
SOH 72.84
HX 70.98
L1/L2 365
QC 16

AFTER Reprogramming:
GIDS ??
AHr 70.459
SOH 88.65
HX 71.07 (all 12 bars returned)

11/2/18 ODO 15,799 1st Bar drop after Reprogramming
SOH=83.37
AR=67.06
GIDS=16 (SGids=306 EGids=206)
HX=62.84
L1/2 430
QC 18 6/26/18

12/15/18 (3rd anniversary of delivery) [3rd Annual Battery check]

ODO 16,565
GIDs 150
AHr 66.731
SOH 83.96
Hx 62.16
QC 19
L1/L2 447

-J.Tim
 
LeftieBiker said:
Did the reprogramming affect your perceived range?

It affected by perceived range, yes. But from my odometer (odo) readings you see I don't travel many miles. I usually charge every 4-5 days instead of every week now, but I can still get 80 miles or so from 100 percent to 15-20 percent except for really cold conditions (for Texas, anyway). But I'm kinda torn about perceived range versus actual range. My route always takes about 5 percent to 6 percent of the battery (heat or a/c seems to affect that very little) so when I perceive the range down to the GOM-rated 15 percent I know where I can go and I see the actual range is 80 miles or so from the last charge I know I need to charge. Do I wish the battery lasted longer than a year and a half (perceived) before the first bar drops, yes. Did I have this kind of psychological anxiety of range when I drove my Prius and got down to 1/4 a tank? Yes.

When I reset my trip ODO after charging up, my monthly average has looked like this, and other than a few outlier months, it doesn't change much:

April 2016
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 74.4

May 2016
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 68.6

June 2016*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 66.66

July 2016*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 51.8

August 2016*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 65.5

September 2016*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 68.62

October 2016
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 70.57

November 2016*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 58.8

December 2016*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 75.04

January 2017*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 67.2

February 2017*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 65.875

March 2017*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 84.7

April 2017*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 63.137

May 2017*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 66

June 2017*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 64.13

July 2017*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 42.20

August 2017*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 55.2

September 2017
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 56.1

October 2017*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 61.6

November 2017*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 75

December 2017*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 70.01

January 2018*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 66.81

February 2018*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 77.86

March 2018*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 68.05

April 2018*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 94.95

May 2018*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 76.18

June 2018*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 54.76 (reprogramming done)

July 2018*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 53.51

August 2018*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 71.3

September 2018
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 78.6

October 2018 *-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 67.1

November 2018*-
AVERAGE MILES PER CHARGE: 84.13

*-Use of A/C reduces efficiency by estimated 10%
*-Use of Heat reduces efficiency by estimated 20%


Uh, did I understand you question?

-J.Tim
 
JTim said:
LeftieBiker said:
Did the reprogramming affect your perceived range?

It affected by perceived range, yes. But from my odometer (odo) readings you see I don't travel many miles. I usually charge every 4-5 days instead of every week now, but I can still get 80 miles or so from 100 percent to 15-20 percent except for really cold conditions (for Texas, anyway). But I'm kinda torn about perceived range versus actual range. My route always takes about 5 percent to 6 percent of the battery (heat or a/c seems to affect that very little) so when I perceive the range down to the GOM-rated 15 percent I know where I can go and I see the actual range is 80 miles or so from the last charge I know I need to charge. Do I wish the battery lasted longer than a year and a half (perceived) before the first bar drops, yes. Did I have this kind of psychological anxiety of range when I drove my Prius and got down to 1/4 a tank? Yes.

What level do you charge to? If my driving needs were that light, I would never charge beyond 60-70%. Its simply a strain on your battery you don't need. Now before you come up with rationalizations, let me relate a story that I am sure you can find.

Recently, Musk (for God knows what reason) said it was perfectly fine to charge a Tesla to 90% daily. This was nearly a 180º flip on a previous statement he made.

So a Tesla owner who normally charged every 3-5 days changed his setting to the 90% daily and got a message that his average driving needs did not warrant such a setting and it was recommended he select a lower SOC target.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Recently, Musk (for God knows what reason) said it was perfectly fine to charge a Tesla to 90% daily.
You should learn to read the entire tweet (or two.) It will help you avoid spouting drivel.

Musk pointed out that *if needed,* he would be comfortable charging a Tesla up to 90% daily. He never said, implied, or meant that daily charging up to 90% is preferred. His point (lost on all the fools looking for troll-food) was that the expected degradation from daily charging up to 90% SoC was not so severe as to make EV ownership impractical.
 
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Recently, Musk (for God knows what reason) said it was perfectly fine to charge a Tesla to 90% daily.
You should learn to read the entire tweet (or two.) It will help you avoid spouting drivel.

Musk pointed out that *if needed,* he would be comfortable charging a Tesla up to 90% daily. He never said, implied, or meant that daily charging up to 90% is preferred. His point (lost on all the fools looking for troll-food) was that the expected degradation from daily charging up to 90% SoC was not so severe as to make EV ownership impractical.

"I" don't have a Tesla

"I" didn't read any of his tweets

"I" didn't misunderstand his advice

There is nothing I said that is even remotely wrong since I clearly stated it was 2nd hand info but since its 2nd hand, its as accurate as the original poster.

So we can think his statement was misleading (it was)

Didn't have sufficient disclaimers (it didn't)

or not.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
JTim said:
LeftieBiker said:
Did the reprogramming affect your perceived range?

It affected by perceived range, yes. But from my odometer (odo) readings you see I don't travel many miles. I usually charge every 4-5 days instead of every week now, but I can still get 80 miles or so from 100 percent to 15-20 percent except for really cold conditions (for Texas, anyway). But I'm kinda torn about perceived range versus actual range. My route always takes about 5 percent to 6 percent of the battery (heat or a/c seems to affect that very little) so when I perceive the range down to the GOM-rated 15 percent I know where I can go and I see the actual range is 80 miles or so from the last charge I know I need to charge. Do I wish the battery lasted longer than a year and a half (perceived) before the first bar drops, yes. Did I have this kind of psychological anxiety of range when I drove my Prius and got down to 1/4 a tank? Yes.

What level do you charge to? If my driving needs were that light, I would never charge beyond 60-70%. Its simply a strain on your battery you don't need. Now before you come up with rationalizations, let me relate a story that I am sure you can find.

Recently, Musk (for God knows what reason) said it was perfectly fine to charge a Tesla to 90% daily. This was nearly a 180º flip on a previous statement he made.

So a Tesla owner who normally charged every 3-5 days changed his setting to the 90% daily and got a message that his average driving needs did not warrant such a setting and it was recommended he select a lower SOC target.

Huh. A good observation. And an interesting story. Now I'm really curious if I change my habits and see what happens.

After the loss of my first bar before re-programming I started charging to 100%. I still do. And I don't need to. If my percentage reads 100 I'll usually arrive at work at 95 or 94 percent and after arriving home have about 90 percent. High percentage of the battery is one of the things listed in the manual as contributing to battery chemistry degredation.

I'll try your advice, especially in winter, try to get used to lower range early and get rid of the anxiety I seem to have regained, or ... uh... mitigate it?

-J.Tim
 
mn4az said:
mn4az said:
Rather than having folks deal with the crappy formatting I'm keeping my numbers at the below URL. As of now it seems that I am degrading at a faster clip than before the software upgrade. :-( However, that could mean lots of things. By this time next year things could be much different (hopefully) or not (kinda expecting it).

https://1drv.ms/x/s!AmMHBcyzLWAx7IAfhTHs_dPgwtVW6w

No matter what, it's serving it's 9+ year commuter car purpose for us: 3 years of us driving it before the kids drive it 6+ years around town for high school and extracurricular activities.

URL has been updated. Minnesota driver. Dec '15 manufacturing date.

Date: 10/4/2018
SOH: 89.3%
Mileage: 37231

The 100% charge after software upgrade was....

Date: 6/23/2018
SOH: 93.44%
Mileage: 32830

I'm losing ~0.9% SOH every 1k miles. On track for battery warranty replacement at around 84K miles (about 3 years from now at current driving habits). If that happens, I'd be totally cool with a new battery about 5.5 years into the ownership of the car to get me another 5-ish years.

Full blown winter now in MN. SOH improved from 10/4/2018 readings. :eek:

Date 12/29/2018
AHr 71.63
SOH 90.12%
V 395.04
Hx 73.18%
ODO 41034
QC 11
L1/L2 2139
SOC 97.80%
GIDS 327
kWh 25.3
 
Jan 1 2019 Update. There was essentially no change in capacity last month. 355 GID's , 77.61AH, SOH = 97.65%, Hx= 88.14% 9928 mi , 9 L3 charges and 188 L2 charges on the new battery. Looking back at my records that seems to be normal for this time of year. Gee, the battery does well as long as the daytime high is less than 80 degrees. December through March periods show little loss compared to July through October periods.

It seems like I might hit the replacement requirements just before the 100,000 mi mark. It's difficult to judge because I bought the car in December but got the battery replaced in June so the daytime temps are out of sync when I compare the monthly losses between the two batteries.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Did the reprogramming affect your perceived range?

Both my wife and I perceive that the GOM/SOH% drops quicker when it is low. Before the reprogram, it seemed to take longer to get from LBW to VLBW. After the reprogram, if you get to LBW, it seems to drop towards zero faster. But the GOM starts-out higher now, so I don't think range really decreased. I have no data to back that up; just my perception.
 
Feb 1 2019 Update. There was essentially no change in capacity from last month. 354 GID's , 77.56AH, SOH = 97.58%, Hx= 88.00% 11330 mi , 10 L3 charges and 217 L2 charges on the new battery. Looking back at my records that seems to be normal for this time of year. The battery continues to do well as long as the weather stays cool. The December through March periods show low losses compared to July through October periods. This battery seems to be doing better at this point then the old one. I don't know whether this is due to a better battery or the software update. The real test will be this summer when the temps hit 100+ again. If the battery doesn't lose a lot of capacity over the summer, then perhaps Nissan actually fixed something.
 
Hi everyone, newby here, but buying a Leaf soon and hope to be an active member. I'm looking at a 2016 SL with about 16,700 miles. Actually went on the road in January 2017, so just over two years. The original pics from the dealer showed a capacity loss of 6 bars, somewhat amazing for 2 years of driving I thought, even for Phoenix. I asked the dealer about it and this is what they said: "When we got it in we noticed that indicator as well and brought into the Nissan dealer for a software update that fixed part of the bars that it was showing down. Nissan had a software update for a inaccurate reading for this years battery health meter."

The indicator now shows 10 bars, I drove it myself, but won't get a chance to run LeafSpy until this afternoon. Skimming through some of this topic's many pages, it seems like this may be legit. The Carfax also shows a dealer service with a date that correlates with when the vehicle went on sale.

Does this seem legit to you all?

Thank you!
 
dbarkman said:
Hi everyone, newby here, but buying a Leaf soon and hope to be an active member. I'm looking at a 2016 SL with about 16,700 miles. Actually went on the road in January 2017, so just over two years. The original pics from the dealer showed a capacity loss of 6 bars, somewhat amazing for 2 years of driving I thought, even for Phoenix. I asked the dealer about it and this is what they said: "When we got it in we noticed that indicator as well and brought into the Nissan dealer for a software update that fixed part of the bars that it was showing down. Nissan had a software update for a inaccurate reading for this years battery health meter."

The indicator now shows 10 bars, I drove it myself, but won't get a chance to run LeafSpy until this afternoon. Skimming through some of this topic's many pages, it seems like this may be legit. The Carfax also shows a dealer service with a date that correlates with when the vehicle went on sale.

Does this seem legit to you all?

Thank you!

Yes. The software update applies to the 2016/2017 model years only. It only fixes an incorrect reporting of actual loss. So the leaf you're looking at now as a legitimate 2 bar loss. Maybe after this summer or next summer, it'll qualify for a warranty replacement.
 
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