Tonyt
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:36 pm
Delivery Date: 30 May 2011
Location: OC California

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:00 am

2013 May build, currently with 1 bar loss 51.86 Ahr and 79% SOH. 36k miles, think second bar should drop any day. 1 3/4 year left on capacity warrenty, hope it makes it...
The cars I drive on a regular basis.

2011 Leaf SL, bought as 4 bar looser!
2015 Fusion Energi, Gas guzzler!
2016 Fiat 500e
2016 Spark EV

dhanson865
Moderator
Posts: 1473
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:12 am
Leaf Number: 16156
Location: Tennessee

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:30 pm

swaltner wrote:I lost the first capacity bar on my Leaf yesterday morning. Details as follows:

2013 Leaf SV
Manufactured: Jul 2013
Delivered: July 2013 (factory order, so was on the dealers lot for less than 24 hours)
Max gid reading ever recorded: 267
12->11 bars on: 2013-09-06 - 36,147 miles, 240 gids
Location: Wichita, KS
Charging routine: Mostly 80% charge except for 100% charges right before departure (regularly during winter and infrequent at other times)


I assume you mean you lost that bar on Sept-6 2016 not 2013?

I added it to the WIKI but didn't have a VIN for it.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(leaf range chart)
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
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DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11667
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:29 am

silverone wrote:Sorry about my first post being in a controversial subject! No disrespect was intended to any of the forum membership.



and none was taken. We only want to make sure you understand what is going on. That is all. Some will read your post and take it to mean the Chevy Volt battery is far superior to the LEAF which is simply not true. They have simply managed it much different because they have the luxury of gas.

But again; still a great option for a lot of us.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 13001 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1 QCs 112
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bbrowncods
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:53 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Jun 2014
Leaf Number: 339458
Location: Norfolk VA

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:29 pm

I lost the first capacity bar on my Leaf last night during my nightly charge. Details as follows:

2014 Leaf SL
Manufactured: Apr 2014
Delivered: Jun 2014
Max gid reading ever recorded: 267
12->11 bars on: 09-13-2016 - 28,834 miles
Location: NORFOLK, VA
Charging routine: Mostly 80% charge except for 100% a couple of times a month. QC: 4 times(never to 80%), 1581 L1/L2
VIN: 339458
GIDS: 239 (85.1%)/97.0 SOC
55.21 AHr, 84% SOH, 81.60% Hx,18.5 KWH, 86 Batt Temp, 97% SOC

So if you look at my signature below I have only lost 5.9% GIDS since new. It is really upsetting that you loose 1 bar from 15% GID loss, and 9% of that came before it even left the factory.
Last edited by bbrowncods on Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
2014 Cayenne Red Leaf SL purchased 6/9/2014 (dealer received it on 6/7/2014), manufacture date 4/2014.
7/4/14 -629 miles, Temp 83, SOC 97.5, 59.81 Ahr, SOH 91%, Hx 91.44, 20.2 Kwh, Avg 4.127, High 4.136, Low 4.122, GIDS 267/92.5%.

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 6705
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:04 am

GRA wrote:Just to be clear, the Volt's battery has suffered degradation but because GM decided to only use 65% of the total capacity when new, that degradation is hidden from the owner. In addition, they employed a very effective active TMS which slows down the rate of heat-related degradation, which combined with the relatively small SoC window allowed when new and the ability to open up that window as the battery ages, allows the Volt to appear to have no degradation from the user's perspective over a prolonged period of time.

Re: the bolded part, I've heard the Volt opening up more capacity as the battery degrades passed around both as speculation and fact by several different folks. I've also heard Volt folks claiming that the Volt does NOT do that.

I'm not clear who's right. Logically, it'd make sense for GM to do that. Whether or not they do it is a question...

If anyone has a definitive answer, preferably different independent sources providing evidence of one or the other, I'd like to know.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

silverone
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:29 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jan 2017
Location: Eastern OH

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:52 am

cwerdna wrote:
GRA wrote:Just to be clear, the Volt's battery has suffered degradation but because GM decided to only use 65% of the total capacity when new, that degradation is hidden from the owner. In addition, they employed a very effective active TMS which slows down the rate of heat-related degradation, which combined with the relatively small SoC window allowed when new and the ability to open up that window as the battery ages, allows the Volt to appear to have no degradation from the user's perspective over a prolonged period of time.

Re: the bolded part, I've heard the Volt opening up more capacity as the battery degrades passed around both as speculation and fact by several different folks. I've also heard Volt folks claiming that the Volt does NOT do that.

I'm not clear who's right. Logically, it'd make sense for GM to do that. Whether or not they do it is a question...

If anyone has a definitive answer, preferably different independent sources providing evidence of one or the other, I'd like to know.


Not definitive but I've seen posts from GM engineers insist that the capacity window does not open up or change. This was on FB Q&A posts at the Gen 2 release as well as the GM Volt forums. There are also no consumer tools to measure it, as the closest we have is SOC. On the Volt this is just a calculated number from other readings.

Supporting this, you would realistically not expect to see the whole 35% battery "buffer" be available to supplement any range loss experienced. The range loss of a smaller battery should be more noticeable than a larger battery as well. Compare a 50,000 EV mile Leaf with a 50,000 mile EV Volt and the Volt will have way more charge cycles in that timeframe - yet no degradation has been reported - to the extent that GM is now using that as a talking point.

Don't get me wrong, I understand there HAS to be some degradation based on battery chemistry, but it's just not being reported as a significant event on these cars. I wouldn't have expected thermal management to trump time and battery cycling to keep batteries going, but that sure appears to be the case.

If degradation is being hidden by a window, I'd expect that we'd be hearing about SOMEONE hitting that by now.
2013 SL with Premium package - build date 5/13. 12 bar car with 38,000 miles and counting...
2014 Volt - 45,000+ miles

GRA
Posts: 6837
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:32 pm

silverone wrote:
cwerdna wrote:
GRA wrote:Just to be clear, the Volt's battery has suffered degradation but because GM decided to only use 65% of the total capacity when new, that degradation is hidden from the owner. In addition, they employed a very effective active TMS which slows down the rate of heat-related degradation, which combined with the relatively small SoC window allowed when new and the ability to open up that window as the battery ages, allows the Volt to appear to have no degradation from the user's perspective over a prolonged period of time.

Re: the bolded part, I've heard the Volt opening up more capacity as the battery degrades passed around both as speculation and fact by several different folks. I've also heard Volt folks claiming that the Volt does NOT do that.

I'm not clear who's right. Logically, it'd make sense for GM to do that. Whether or not they do it is a question...

If anyone has a definitive answer, preferably different independent sources providing evidence of one or the other, I'd like to know.


Not definitive but I've seen posts from GM engineers insist that the capacity window does not open up or change. This was on FB Q&A posts at the Gen 2 release as well as the GM Volt forums.

I've seen those claims too, and simply don't believe them (what, company reps fibbing to the public?), but as you say, until someone has a way to measure this we can't say for certain. OTOH, LG Chem would have had to invent a miracle battery for the Volt to have suffered zero detectable degradation with no change in usable SoC after 5.5 years, so weigh the probabilities.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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drees
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Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:34 pm

silverone wrote:Don't get me wrong, I understand there HAS to be some degradation based on battery chemistry, but it's just not being reported as a significant event on these cars.

INL has tested the Volt and found that when testing the battery out of the car, capacity is definitely being lost.

For example:
https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2013-chevrolet-volt

After 130k miles and 3 years, the 4 Volts they tested about 9-10% capacity loss.

Compare this to the '13 LEAFs which lost 14-16% in about a year and 15k miles.

FWIW, the '13 Ford Focus EVs they tested also lost about 10% capacity in about a year and 12k miles, despite having thermal management.

Whatever secret sauce GM has in their LG packs, it appears to be working.
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

edatoakrun
Posts: 4295
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:31 am

drees wrote:
silverone wrote:Don't get me wrong, I understand there HAS to be some degradation based on battery chemistry, but it's just not being reported as a significant event on these cars.

INL has tested the Volt and found that when testing the battery out of the car, capacity is definitely being lost.

For example:
https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2013-chevrolet-volt

After 130k miles and 3 years, the 4 Volts they tested about 9-10% capacity loss...

Whatever secret sauce GM has in their LG packs, it appears to be working.

This has already been discussed, repeatedly, in the Volt thread.

The battery degradation shown by the Volt test fleet cited by drees doesn't tell you much, since the Volt's miles driven were overwhelmingly fueled by gasoline, not electricity.

The four 2013 Chevrolet Volt EREVs have been driven a total of 599,018 miles. The cumulative
average fuel economy is 38.8 mpg and the cumulative average electricity consumption is 60.8 AC
Wh/mile...

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2013-chevrolet-volt

So, what this study shows is that if you Drive a Volt ~150 k miles, over 80% of those miles fueled by gas, with very little battery pack cycling, and continue to use gasoline to fuel your battery pack refrigeration system even after the battery charge is depleted, you will not have very much pack degradation over ~3.5 years, even in Phoenix.

You also will have burned more gas than you would have driving an efficient/hybrid ICEV, every kWh you used from the grid would have been totally wasted, and you would have suffered ~$36,000 in depreciation (before incentives).

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... 78EREV.pdf

The only secret sauce in the Gen one Volt's design, is the lack of critical thinking by those considering buying one...

BTW, here are the somewhat improved efficiency results for the Gen 2 Volt so far:

The four 2016 Chevrolet Volt EREVs
have been driven a total of 56,437 miles. The cumulative average fuel economy is 41.3 mpg and the
cumulative average electricity consumption is 46.3 AC Wh/mile....

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... ltEREV.pdf
no condition is permanent

silverone
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:29 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jan 2017
Location: Eastern OH

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:47 pm

edatoakrun wrote:The battery degradation shown by the Volt test fleet cited by drees doesn't tell you much, since the Volt's miles driven were overwhelmingly fueled by gasoline, not electricity.

The four 2013 Chevrolet Volt EREVs have been driven a total of 599,018 miles. The cumulative
average fuel economy is 38.8 mpg and the cumulative average electricity consumption is 60.8 AC
Wh/mile...

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2013-chevrolet-volt

So, what this study shows is that if you Drive a Volt ~150 k miles, over 80% of those miles fueled by gas, with very little battery pack cycling, and continue to use gasoline to fuel your battery pack refrigeration system even after the battery charge is depleted, you will not have very much pack degradation over ~3.5 years, even in Phoenix.

You also will have burned more gas than you would have driving an efficient/hybrid ICEV, every kWh you used from the grid would have been totally wasted, and you would have suffered ~$36,000 in depreciation (before incentives).

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... 78EREV.pdf

The only secret sauce in the Gen one Volt's design, is the lack of critical thinking by those considering buying one...

BTW, here are the somewhat improved efficiency results for the Gen 2 Volt so far:

The four 2016 Chevrolet Volt EREVs
have been driven a total of 56,437 miles. The cumulative average fuel economy is 41.3 mpg and the
cumulative average electricity consumption is 46.3 AC Wh/mile....

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... ltEREV.pdf


The INL test may be valid on degradation just based on the fact that 80% of the time the Volt battery was floating at the low SOC mark somewhat within operating parameters for most of the test period. I'm not sure the test methods beyond that even reflect the fleet they're trying to measure. For all other conclusions drawn? Not so much.

* All operating cost and cost per mile metrics are based on MSRP plus pricing. When was that ever valid for a Volt or a Leaf for that matter. Depreciation hurts, but I'm betting no one has taken a 36,000 hit on either car. To pick a nit, how many 38MPG highway cars are there and at what prices?

* The Volt fleet on Voltstats shows less than 1% of cars operating at 20% EV mode or less. Few drive this way and there is little financial benefit to do so. The median in that population is well over 75% of miles EV mode. At US average prices and EV efficiency of the Volt, gas is still about twice the price of electricity. More EV miles equal more savings. I don't see how every kWh from grid could be totally wasted when the cost is half of the gas equivalent.

Please let this Volt Driving Critical Thought Imbecile ask one more question, which was why I originally posted here. Do you think a 3 year old 40,000 mile LEAF at or approaching 11 bars would be good for a 40 mile commute for the next 3 years and 60,000 additional miles at potentially zero degree winter temperatures? One way with charging on both ends. I know a 3-5 yr old Volt can, but it would be interesting to try something different and save a 4,000 price premium on a used model Volt vs LEAF.
2013 SL with Premium package - build date 5/13. 12 bar car with 38,000 miles and counting...
2014 Volt - 45,000+ miles

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