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Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:52 am
by BuckMkII
My 2013 SV (built 7/13) lost its first bar on or about 8/21/2017. Mileage was just over 40,500 miles (exact date and miles of bar loss were not noted). LeafSpy numbers for that date were AHr = 55.9, SOH = 85%, Hx = 83.0% My most recent charge to 100% showed 243 GIDs, which is basically unchanged over the summer. I remember seeing 245 and 244 at least once each over the summer, but IIRC my first 100% charge (a week or so after I got the car) also topped out at 243.

This car lived in Fremont CA, near the Bay, until late Fall 2016. From nav destination records, most of its driving was in San Jose and around to Mountain View/Sunnyvale. It was auctioned and shipped to Seattle last winter, and I bought it in late May with almost 39,000 miles. It may never leave King County again, unless we take it on one of the ferries across the Sound.

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:37 pm
by hmmwv
I consider I already lost a bar even though I still get 12 bars on the GOM.

My March '13 built SL dropped to 55.158Ahr, 84% SOH, 80.33 Hx on July 28th at 41,475 miles. The capacity continues to drop, today I'm at 54.11Ahr, 82% SOH, 78.37 Hx at 42,847 miles. 24QC and 1753 L1/L2.

Since obviously I'm below 85% capacity for a month and half now, it's curious why I haven't lost my first bar yet.

When I bought mine as a certified preowned (Pacific Northwest car the whole time) in June 2015, it had 18,000 miles on it but LeafSpy showed 67.36Ahr, after 6 month (Dec 2015) and 5,500 miles it still got 66.14Ahr, by March 2016 it dropped to 64Ahr, so I know it's not cheats such as BMS reset. But the past two unusually hot summers in Seattle really took its toll on the battery. It only lost 3 Ahr after 3 years and 26,000 miles, then in the past 18 month it dropped 10 Ahr. I charge daily to 80% at home on L2 around 2-3AM, but in the summer since it's so hot during the day the garage stays pretty warm all night, around 75F.

Here are my rough degradation table trend:

June 2015, 67Ahr, 100% SOH, 18,000 miles
Dec 2015, 66Ahr, 100% SOH, 23,500 miles
March 2016, 64Ahr, 99% SOH, 26,000 miles
Aug 2016, 59Ahr, 90% SOH, 31,700 miles
April 2017, 58Ahr, 88% SOH, 38,700 miles
June 2017, 57Ahr, 87% SOH, 40,000 miles
July 2017, 55Ahr, 84% SOH, 41,475 miles
Sept 2017, 54.11Ahr, 82% SOH, 42,847 miles.

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:10 pm
by bpnugent
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
bpnugent wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
So you do generally charge in your garage? I would think that Colorado would not see consistently high temps? But I guess that depends on your elevation


I do primarily charge and store in my garage during the day, and try to get it outside at night. The temperature difference between the high and low on any given day is pretty high- 30 degrees or so. Dry and 5,000 feet. There are really only a couple of months where you can see temps in the 90's fairly consistently. I've only seen my temperature bars get to 7 twice ever, and I'm usually able to get down to 5 bars overnight even in the worst months.



well have to guess you got an early 2013 because you lost your bar within a few thousand miles of when I would have lost mine...on my 2011. After 45,000 miles ahr was 57½ish. On my 2013 (build date 11/13) I had 60 ahr after 45,000 miles so was looking at losing first bar around 65-75,000 miles or so....


I finally checked the sticker in the driver side door, and it said, "MFD 9/13". So, maybe it is a newer battery. The good news is that I hit 60,000 miles with 85% SOH after a rather warm summer (with less overnight cooling than usual, due to working patterns). We'll see if I can keep it there over the winter.

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:21 pm
by BrockWI
Sept 2017, 58.77Ahr, 89% SOH, 50,127 miles 89.32 Hx

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:31 pm
by SageBrush
hmmwv wrote:I consider I already lost a bar even though I still get 12 bars on the GOM.

My March '13 built SL dropped to 55.158Ahr, 84% SOH, 80.33 Hx on July 28th at 41,475 miles. The capacity continues to drop, today I'm at 54.11Ahr, 82% SOH, 78.37 Hx at 42,847 miles. 24QC and 1753 L1/L2.

Since obviously I'm below 85% capacity for a month and half now, it's curious why I haven't lost my first bar yet.

When I bought mine as a certified preowned (Pacific Northwest car the whole time) in June 2015, it had 18,000 miles on it but LeafSpy showed 67.36Ahr, after 6 month (Dec 2015) and 5,500 miles it still got 66.14Ahr, by March 2016 it dropped to 64Ahr, so I know it's not cheats such as BMS reset. But the past two unusually hot summers in Seattle really took its toll on the battery. It only lost 3 Ahr after 3 years and 26,000 miles, then in the past 18 month it dropped 10 Ahr. I charge daily to 80% at home on L2 around 2-3AM, but in the summer since it's so hot during the day the garage stays pretty warm all night, around 75F.

Here are my rough degradation table trend:

June 2015, 67Ahr, 100% SOH, 18,000 miles
Dec 2015, 66Ahr, 100% SOH, 23,500 miles
March 2016, 64Ahr, 99% SOH, 26,000 miles
Aug 2016, 59Ahr, 90% SOH, 31,700 miles
April 2017, 58Ahr, 88% SOH, 38,700 miles
June 2017, 57Ahr, 87% SOH, 40,000 miles
July 2017, 55Ahr, 84% SOH, 41,475 miles
Sept 2017, 54.11Ahr, 82% SOH, 42,847 miles.


Good data!
My car is also a 2013, manufactured in October. Placed in service 3/2014 in the Bay area of SF. I bought it 1/2017 and brought it to CO.
There are a lot of similarities in our cars, including a 'like new' battery capacity, then a big unexpected drop in Ahr along the way. I've pretty much decided that Ahr readings in this car are mostly reliable if they make sense over time and are sometimes wildly wrong. I doubt either of us actually bought cars with 65+ Ahrs and our recent readings and Ahr loss trends are about right. I'm hoping like you to get a reprieve from the capacity loss during the winter.

My car:
Image

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:58 pm
by edatoakrun
The "hot summers in Seattle"! and Colorado are extremely unlikely to have caused your packs to lose capacity at rates similar to those shown by the 2012 LEAFs subjected to AVTA torture testing in Phoenix.

When you bought your LEAFs, did you actually believe your packs had lost negligible capacity during the several years and many thousands of miles driven by their previous owners, based on the LBC results you posted below?

The LBC estimates of capacity for your packs below were almost certainly wildly inaccurate when you bought your LEAFs, and are likely to be just as far from reality today.

What compels you to take such implausible results seriously?

SageBrush wrote:
hmmwv wrote:I consider I already lost a bar even though I still get 12 bars on the GOM.

My March '13 built SL dropped to 55.158Ahr, 84% SOH, 80.33 Hx on July 28th at 41,475 miles. The capacity continues to drop, today I'm at 54.11Ahr, 82% SOH, 78.37 Hx at 42,847 miles. 24QC and 1753 L1/L2.

Since obviously I'm below 85% capacity for a month and half now, it's curious why I haven't lost my first bar yet.

When I bought mine as a certified preowned (Pacific Northwest car the whole time) in June 2015, it had 18,000 miles on it but LeafSpy showed 67.36Ahr, after 6 month (Dec 2015) and 5,500 miles it still got 66.14Ahr, by March 2016 it dropped to 64Ahr, so I know it's not cheats such as BMS reset. But the past two unusually hot summers in Seattle really took its toll on the battery. It only lost 3 Ahr after 3 years and 26,000 miles, then in the past 18 month it dropped 10 Ahr. I charge daily to 80% at home on L2 around 2-3AM, but in the summer since it's so hot during the day the garage stays pretty warm all night, around 75F.

Here are my rough degradation table trend:

June 2015, 67Ahr, 100% SOH, 18,000 miles
Dec 2015, 66Ahr, 100% SOH, 23,500 miles
March 2016, 64Ahr, 99% SOH, 26,000 miles
Aug 2016, 59Ahr, 90% SOH, 31,700 miles
April 2017, 58Ahr, 88% SOH, 38,700 miles
June 2017, 57Ahr, 87% SOH, 40,000 miles
July 2017, 55Ahr, 84% SOH, 41,475 miles
Sept 2017, 54.11Ahr, 82% SOH, 42,847 miles.


Good data!
My car is also a 2013, manufactured in October. Placed in service 3/2014 in the Bay area of SF. I bought it 1/2017 and brought it to CO.
There are a lot of similarities in our cars, including a 'like new' battery capacity, then a big unexpected drop in Ahr along the way. I've pretty much decided that Ahr readings in this car are mostly reliable if they make sense over time and are sometimes wildly wrong. I doubt either of us actually bought cars with 65+ Ahrs and our recent readings and Ahr loss trends are about right. I'm hoping like you to get a reprieve from the capacity loss during the winter.

My car:
Image

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:53 am
by DaveinOlyWA
these trends seem "normal" or at least common. Many theories out there I am sure but I think its simply Nissan instrumentation not being very accurate. In the grand scheme of things, it only needs to show long term trends and we get caught up in the day to day variations that LEAF Spy shows us

Now why we see this? Its likely poorly maintained calibration. We know that fast charging, deep cycling, etc. does not "exercise" the battery or make it stronger, etc. I think what is happening is this driving pattern change simply recalibrates the BMS and lack of makes the numbers either wander or get stuck.

I did try this on my LEAF and found that if I drive light like 20ish miles a day and only plug in say 1 hour a day, my numbers tend to either drop rather dramatically or simply freeze. After repeating the pattern 5 separate times trying to get consistency, I realize there is something else at play here besides driving and charging patterns. Either way, it does show that any reading could have an error of 10%.

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:39 am
by SageBrush
If we can trust the trip miles/kWh and SoC meters a run-down test from 80% to 20% would let us trend the battery another way. Seems like a reasonable x-check of the Ahr capacity and a more consistent result to trend.

k = trip miles/kWh
m = miles driven during test trip

Full battery kWh would then be (m/k)/0.6 = 5m/3k

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:53 pm
by hmmwv
edatoakrun wrote:The "hot summers in Seattle"! and Colorado are extremely unlikely to have caused your packs to lose capacity at rates similar to those shown by the 2012 LEAFs subjected to AVTA torture testing in Phoenix.

When you bought your LEAFs, did you actually believe your packs had lost negligible capacity during the several years and many thousands of miles driven by their previous owners, based on the LBC results you posted below?

The LBC estimates of capacity for your packs below were almost certainly wildly inaccurate when you bought your LEAFs, and are likely to be just as far from reality today.

What compels you to take such implausible results seriously?


So are you saying LeafSpyPro is not to be trusted for battery condition readings? Sure I couldn't believe the readings when I first got the car, so I immediately posted here, and was told if it's some sort of BMS reset the pack will return to its true reading after several weeks. My readings were fairly stable for the first 9 month/8,000miles after taking the initial reading, and my driving and charging habits have been exactly the same during my entire ownership of the car. If let's say LeafSpyPro readings are inaccurate, what alternative do I have to learn the true capacity of the pack?

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:43 pm
by DaveinOlyWA
hmmwv wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:The "hot summers in Seattle"! and Colorado are extremely unlikely to have caused your packs to lose capacity at rates similar to those shown by the 2012 LEAFs subjected to AVTA torture testing in Phoenix.

When you bought your LEAFs, did you actually believe your packs had lost negligible capacity during the several years and many thousands of miles driven by their previous owners, based on the LBC results you posted below?

The LBC estimates of capacity for your packs below were almost certainly wildly inaccurate when you bought your LEAFs, and are likely to be just as far from reality today.

What compels you to take such implausible results seriously?


So are you saying LeafSpyPro is not to be trusted for battery condition readings? Sure I couldn't believe the readings when I first got the car, so I immediately posted here, and was told if it's some sort of BMS reset the pack will return to its true reading after several weeks. My readings were fairly stable for the first 9 month/8,000miles after taking the initial reading, and my driving and charging habits have been exactly the same during my entire ownership of the car. If let's say LeafSpyPro readings are inaccurate, what alternative do I have to learn the true capacity of the pack?


Nissan instrumentation is not highly accurate. keeping tabs on battery health is simply not that easy of a job to do.