LeftieBiker
Posts: 9418
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:54 pm

A good post for an existing topic. Mods, please merge with the 2013 bar loss topic.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 8225
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:36 am

Please don't open new threads for each capacity bar loss. MNL would get out of hand if everyone did that. We already have a '13 to '14 capacity bar loss thread at viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18269. My own loss is at viewtopic.php?p=511915#p511915.

Also, some of the (well, at least one) moderators have complained about people unnecessarily starting new threads.
viewtopic.php?p=149582#p149582
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... 644#p52644
viewtopic.php?p=517564#p517564

FWIW, my stats are now:
AHr: 55.16
SOH: 84.35% (tends to vary between 83.xx and 85.xx now)
Hx: 79.58%
odo: 57,195 miles
0 QCs (this car doesn't have a CHAdeMO inlet)
3690 L1/L2s
Silverfish wrote:I hardly knew ye. But I knew it was basically a 10-bar Leaf when I bought it about 2 months ago.

Stats, for the curious:

2013 Leaf SV (built in 2/2013, so probably no lizard battery)
...
I hope the downward trend doesn't continue quite so quickly. But it is what it is.

Definitely not lizard battery, which didn't begin until model year '15. See viewtopic.php?p=513306#p513306.

The 4/2013 and later built '13 Leafs and presumably all '14 model year Leafs seem to have a better chemistry, but not as good as the "lizard" battery.

If the downward trend continues as quickly and you don't live in a hot climate (I have no idea where you're at), you were a victim of a reset.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Silverfish
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:32 am
Delivery Date: 21 Jun 2018

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:35 am

cwerdna wrote:Please don't open new threads for each capacity bar loss. MNL would get out of hand if everyone did that. We already have a '13 to '14 capacity bar loss thread at viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18269. My own loss is at viewtopic.php?p=511915#p511915.

Also, some of the (well, at least one) moderators have complained about people unnecessarily starting new threads.
viewtopic.php?p=149582#p149582
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... 644#p52644
viewtopic.php?p=517564#p517564


Ah, sorry. I did a quick Google search and didn't find an existing topic. It's fine with me to merge this into whatever existing topic the mods choose. Or I can just delete it, if I can delete topics I opened.

cwerdna wrote:Definitely not lizard battery, which didn't begin until model year '15. See viewtopic.php?p=513306#p513306.

The 4/2013 and later built '13 Leafs and presumably all '14 model year Leafs seem to have a better chemistry, but not as good as the "lizard" battery.

If the downward trend continues as quickly and you don't live in a hot climate (I have no idea where you're at), you were a victim of a reset.


Interesting. I had thought that the lizard battery didn't officially appear until 2015, but was actually quietly put into service in later 2013. I hadn't realized there were gradations of battery types in between.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9418
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:27 pm

Interesting. I had thought that the lizard battery didn't officially appear until 2015, but was actually quietly put into service in later 2013. I hadn't realized there were gradations of battery types in between.


There are several generations of Leaf battery, most of which I have given nicknames to distinguish them from each other. The first, terrible pack made from 2011 through March of 2013, is the "Canary" pack because it is not resilient or long-lived except in optimum (chilly) conditions. The pack introduced in April of 2013 I nicknamed the "Wolf" pack, because it is tough and resilient in all conditions except sustained high heat. The "Lizard" pack you know about. It is somewhat better in extreme heat, but still not fantastic. Then in 2016 Nissan took two steps backwards with the "Lettuce" pack, with more initial capacity but such terrible degradation that it can easily fall below a Wolf pack in range after two years or less. They have recently introduced a firmware patch that will supposedly fix the issue, but I remain skeptical. The 40kwh pack in the 2018 Leaf seems, from very preliminary data, (unfortunately) to be another version of the Lettuce pack as far as durability of capacity goes...
Last edited by LeftieBiker on Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 8225
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:12 pm

No. Please don’t delete.
Silverfish wrote:Interesting. I had thought that the lizard battery didn't officially appear until 2015, but was actually quietly put into service in later 2013. I hadn't realized there were gradations of battery types in between.

No, lizard pack was NOT put into service in 2013. It appeared in model year ’15 Leafs, that began production sometime in mid-2014. Please see earlier links.

We had no idea that 4/2013+ and later Leafs but before "lizard" were apparently better. It was only years after that fact that it seemed like it was true. Nissan has never formally announced or acknowledged this revision that Leftie coined the term "Wolf" pack for.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 2805
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:55 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Interesting. I had thought that the lizard battery didn't officially appear until 2015, but was actually quietly put into service in later 2013. I hadn't realized there were gradations of battery types in between.


There are several generations of Leaf battery, most of which I have given nicknames to distinguish them from each other. The first, terrible pack made from 2011 through March of 2013, is the "Canary" pack because it is not resilient or long-lived except in optimum (chilly) conditions. The pack introduced in April of 2013 the "Wolf" pack because it is tough and resilient in all conditions except sustained high heat. The "Lizard" pack you know about. It is somewhat better in extreme heat, but still not fantastic. Then in 2016 Nissan took two steps backwards with the "Lettuce" pack, with more initial capacity but such terrible degradation that it can easily fall below a Wolf pack in range after two years or less. The 40kwh pack in the 2018 Leaf seems, unfortunately, to be another version of the Lettuce pack as far as durability of capacity goes...


The 40 kWh pack is too early to tell, although I would not recommend anybody gamble on it unless the car is severely discounted.
As for the 30 kWh packs ... I am not sure. The New Zealand data posted by dwl has me edging towards the notion that they may actually be degrading at the rates seen in 24 kWh packs, as shown by the data correction after the software update.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
Posts: 2328
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:57 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Then in 2016 Nissan took two steps backwards with the "Lettuce" pack, with more initial capacity but such terrible degradation that it can easily fall below a Wolf pack in range after two years or less.


Based on a firmware error in reporting capacity. Dyno testing shows that these batteries are similar to the "Lizard" packs, that reported capacity more closely matches the independently measured capacity after firmware updated.

Image

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... 60#p533030

https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-ni ... reporting/
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9418
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:48 pm

I'm taking this "firmware update" with a big grain of salt. Unless people generally start reporting an increase in actual range (not SOH) that doesn't come from running the cells lower than the 24kwh pack does, I'm going to keep thinking that is Nissan playing games with the BMS that don't primarily consist of fixing a simple "error" in programming. I guess we'll see, but I'll remember to include this caveat in the future.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

alozzy
Posts: 1122
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:34 pm

@WetEV That's a very well written report and their methodology seems solid too. Pretty clear that the software update is legit, dealing only with an under reporting of SoH and the related GOM range estimates. Based on their findings, it's also clear that the 30 kWh packs are degrading in a very similar fashion to 24 kWh packs. Nice to have an independent analysis, rather than just taking Nissan's word for it.

Thanks for sharing this, as I may consider a 30 kWh LEAF as a used car buy in a few years and it's good to know that, if I can get another PNW LEAF, I'll have a good chance of getting one with a healthy pack.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9418
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: RIP, 11th bar

Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:44 pm

Hopefully the almost 1% loss of SOH per month I'm seeing, despite my cooled garage, is just another BMS "error."
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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