taloyd
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:08 am
Delivery Date: 04 Dec 2013
Leaf Number: 422799
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Contact: Website

Re: LEAF's 12V battery behaviors - and why they go bad

Fri May 12, 2017 12:30 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Running a lead-acid battery flat (below 12 volts) for more than a few seconds does damage it, no exceptions. If there is enough capacity then the damage is masked, but capacity has been reduced. Being able to still use the battery after recharging it does not mean that it wasn't harmed. This issue, BTW, extends through the 2013 MY, not just 2011-2012, and maybe through the '14 MY as well.


Want to double down on this! My last new battery (lucky #5) in the car (currently at the dealer for the 3rd time for this 12V discharge issue) was only able to charge to 68% of it's original (ie: 100%) capacity. That's after one discharge (read: damage) cycle from the car that forced it to well below 10V.

There is incremental/nominal ~use~ and there is ~damage~. What's being discussed here is damage/abnormal use. It is reasonable that a battery will gradually lose capacity over years of use. It is also reasonable for a battery to be damaged irreparably by an exceptional circumstance. The sad thing is it seems this exceptional circumstance isn't so exceptional - or else I'd have a car right now instead of borrowing one.

Best,
Tal
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arnis
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Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: LEAF's 12V battery behaviors - and why they go bad

Fri May 12, 2017 1:11 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Running a lead-acid battery flat (below 12 volts) for more than a few seconds does damage it, no exceptions. If there is enough capacity then the damage is masked, but capacity has been reduced. Being able to still use the battery after recharging it does not mean that it wasn't harmed. This issue, BTW, extends through the 2013 MY, not just 2011-2012, and maybe through the '14 MY as well.


Throw that Leaf out for now. Tell me about lead acid battery damage that happens AS SOON AS voltage drops below 12V (aka below 40% SOC).
I'm extremely interested WHAT PART gets damaged.
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LeftieBiker
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: LEAF's 12V battery behaviors - and why they go bad

Fri May 12, 2017 4:24 pm

The plates get sulfation that won't go away again under normal circumstances. A desulfating charger might remove it, but normal use of the battery will see reduced capacity - aka "damage." You seem to be arguing that reversible damage isn't really "damage" at all. Is a scratch in the car's paint "damage" in your view? How about a ding in the metal that can be iced or popped out?
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

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RegGuheert
Posts: 5547
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Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: LEAF's 12V battery behaviors - and why they go bad

Sat May 13, 2017 3:56 am

LeftieBiker wrote:The plates get sulfation that won't go away again under normal circumstances.
The term "sulfation" normally refers to lead sulfate which has hardened (crystallized) after sitting for some time in the battery. The shortest period I have read about for lead sulfate to harden is three days (in very hot weather). Otherwise, lead sulfate is in the form of a paste and it is the normal product whenever a lead-acid battery discharges. In that form it readily dissolves and participates in the charging reaction. As such, I have difficulty seeing how a single overnight discharge could result in the hardening of any lead sulfate. That said, it is important to perform a FULL, SLOW recharge following such an event to ensure that none of the lead sulfate remains after the event. As you have said, the LEAF is certainly not up to that task!

That said, I can think of a few reasons why a battery might be damaged by such an event:
1) The battery might be damaged by jump-starting the battery, which subjects the battery to extremely high currents. Such high currents can be hard on the battery and can lead to things such as "flaking" of the lead paste from the plates, resulting in a permanent loss of capacity.
2) By fully discharging the battery, much of the lead on the plates is removed. During recharge, the lead is not replaced in the same manner as it previously existed, which can affect the battery's resistance and perhaps even reduce capacity a bit.
3) Some cells in the battery which had less charge or capacity before the incident may be forced into a reverse-voltage situation during the deep discharge, which could result in permanent damage to the battery.

My E350 van has an annoying problem with the interior lights: they don't have strong detents to hold them in place. As a result, they can be turned on simply by vibration caused by the vehicle being buffeted by the wind. The result is a frequently-dead battery. This problem has occurred on many occasions (perhaps 20). When it does, I use my 1.5A trickle charger to recharge the battery and after all those discharges it still takes the full 36-hour+ time I expect for a full charge. (If the voltage is below about 4V, the charger will not recharge the battery, so I trick it by putting a couple of D-cell batteries in series with the 12-V battery so that the charger sees enough voltage to begin its charge. Once the battery itself is above about six volts, I remove the D-cells. This allows me to fully recharge the battery without ever subjecting it to more than 1.5A of current.)
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

lorenfb
Posts: 1313
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: LEAF's 12V battery behaviors - and why they go bad

Sat May 13, 2017 8:52 am

RegGuheert wrote:
My E350 van has an annoying problem with the interior lights: they don't have strong detents to hold them in place. As a result, they can be turned on simply by vibration caused by the vehicle being buffeted by the wind.


You really mean the bulbs themselves cause self-activation? Sounds like the E350's power ECU, e.g. the body
control module (BCM), may be intermittently turning the lights on (assumes the BCM controls the interior lights),
or you have door switch that intermittently activates the interior lights thru the BCM. In any case, the source of the
problem needs to be found or a dead battery at an inconvenient time may be problematic. Obviously, this also applies
to those Leaf owners who have frequent dead 12V batteries and attempt to "solve" the problem by a frequent use of
an external battery charger, i.e. without determining why the 12V battery has inadequate start-up capacity for the Leaf.

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RegGuheert
Posts: 5547
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Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: LEAF's 12V battery behaviors - and why they go bad

Sat May 13, 2017 11:08 am

lorenfb wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:My E350 van has an annoying problem with the interior lights: they don't have strong detents to hold them in place. As a result, they can be turned on simply by vibration caused by the vehicle being buffeted by the wind.
You really mean the bulbs themselves cause self-activation?
No, I mean that the lenses that you rock to turn on the lights do not have strong detents. As a result, they can move into the "On" condition just through the motion caused by wind hitting the parked van. That is the cause of the problem.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

arnis
Posts: 726
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: LEAF's 12V battery behaviors - and why they go bad

Sat May 13, 2017 12:30 pm

LeftieBiker is incorrect and RegGuheert is mostly correct. Though:
1) Lead Acid battery can be recharged fast (in the low end) fast with no bad side effects.
It does get "surface charged" though it diminishes when charging continues for longer.
2) Only older leafs are not up to task. My 2014 EU Leaf keeps battery at 14.5V for HOURS.
Like I said before, newer Leaf charges the battery to near 80% and keeps it that way.


It is actually true that from time to time it is sometimes reasonable to overcharge Lead Acid battery.
Though trickle charger is not doing that as well. Idea is to normalize cells between each other by
applying 15-15,5V for short period (until all cells are boiling evenly, usually ~1 hour) after full charge.

Leaf and other vehicles I've services (BMWs from 1997-2010) charge at high rate with absolutely
no side effects. Voltage is kept at 14.4V. In case of Leaf voltage is kept at 14.5V for hours during normal
home charging (usually 3-8 hours). Until current drops to few amps, which means battery is
around 80% charged (this information is not available for Nissan though same algorithm for BMWs and
BMW tech manuals actually specify 80% charge state algorithm).

Yes I've understood now that older Leafs did have incorrect algorithm. Let's stop saying all Leafs if
actually it applies to early Leafs only.
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lorenfb
Posts: 1313
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: LEAF's 12V battery behaviors - and why they go bad

Sat May 13, 2017 10:03 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:My E350 van has an annoying problem with the interior lights: they don't have strong detents to hold them in place. As a result, they can be turned on simply by vibration caused by the vehicle being buffeted by the wind.
You really mean the bulbs themselves cause self-activation?
No, I mean that the lenses that you rock to turn on the lights do not have strong detents. As a result, they can move into the "On" condition just through the motion caused by wind hitting the parked van. That is the cause of the problem.


Sounds like a very minor tweak for you, e.g. re-tension a spring and/or deepen the detents. That assumes one can open
the light unit. In any case, at least you know what is causing your intermittent current draw verses some Leaf owners
and their "random" dead 12V batteries.

Scaramanga
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:31 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Dec 2016
Leaf Number: 308884
Location: Tacoma, WA

Re: LEAF's 12V battery behaviors - and why they go bad

Sun May 14, 2017 10:39 am

arnis wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:Running a lead-acid battery flat (below 12 volts) for more than a few seconds does damage it, no exceptions. If there is enough capacity then the damage is masked, but capacity has been reduced. Being able to still use the battery after recharging it does not mean that it wasn't harmed. This issue, BTW, extends through the 2013 MY, not just 2011-2012, and maybe through the '14 MY as well.


Throw that Leaf out for now. Tell me about lead acid battery damage that happens AS SOON AS voltage drops below 12V (aka below 40% SOC).
I'm extremely interested WHAT PART gets damaged.


LOL - I joined this board to listen to you guys fight about batteries. Did it ever occur to you guys that there's so many independent variables (and opinions) here that you'll never arrive at a definitive answer / cause / resolution on this observed battery behavior?
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lorenfb
Posts: 1313
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: LEAF's 12V battery behaviors - and why they go bad

Mon May 15, 2017 12:49 am

Scaramanga wrote:
arnis wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:Running a lead-acid battery flat (below 12 volts) for more than a few seconds does damage it, no exceptions. If there is enough capacity then the damage is masked, but capacity has been reduced. Being able to still use the battery after recharging it does not mean that it wasn't harmed. This issue, BTW, extends through the 2013 MY, not just 2011-2012, and maybe through the '14 MY as well.


Throw that Leaf out for now. Tell me about lead acid battery damage that happens AS SOON AS voltage drops below 12V (aka below 40% SOC).
I'm extremely interested WHAT PART gets damaged.


LOL - I joined this board to listen to you guys fight about batteries. Did it ever occur to you guys that there's so many independent variables (and opinions) here that you'll never arrive at a definitive answer / cause / resolution on this observed battery behavior?


And your insightful input with 33 years auto "exp"?

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