No heat in cold weather 2013 SV

This winter-actually just the last few days when the temps have gotten down to below zero--we are getting no heat at all in our 2013 Leaf SV. It is heating in the garage when connected to the EVSE and heating is started by the timer, but heating stops almost immediately when I pull out of the garage. So far it hasn't been a huge problem as we aren't traveling much in this cold. I am hoping it starts heating again when the temps increase outside, but wonder if anyone else has had this happen. Taking it to a dealer isn't practical right now as the closest Nissan dealer is over 25 miles away and only has one technician familiar with the Leaf, and I haven't been able to contact him. The next closest dealer is about 75 miles away.
Thanks for any help or suggestions.

Jim, in Western Wisconsin

Hi from Maine.
I recently went from Mass to Maine in 5 to -5 temps and while I won't say I had no heat there definitely wasn't alot. Used the seat and steering wheel heaters and kept in recirculate mode to survive. While at the DC chargers (2 extra were needed) the heat worked better.

I believe the 2013 SV has the hybrid combined heater/AC unit as my 2014 SV does. It is much more efficient than the old 3 kW resistance heater BUT as with all heat pumps, heat output drops quickly below 20F. Just when you need it the most.

There are a number of heating discussions on this. Take a look at this search.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/search.php?keywords=heater&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=25&t=0&submit=Search

I wear lots of layers during these colder day and am dreaming about heated socks or a heated floor mat.

The car should provide heat at all temps. When the heat pump can't provide heat (and often when it can, as an aid to it) there is a resistance heater in the system as well. That apparently has failed. I'm guessing the garage is just warm enough for the heatpump to provide heat alone.

WisJim said:

This winter-actually just the last few days when the temps have gotten down to below zero--we are getting no heat at all in our 2013 Leaf SV. It is heating in the garage when connected to the EVSE and heating is started by the timer, but heating stops almost immediately when I pull out of the garage. So far it hasn't been a huge problem as we aren't traveling much in this cold. I am hoping it starts heating again when the temps increase outside, but wonder if anyone else has had this happen. Taking it to a dealer isn't practical right now as the closest Nissan dealer is over 25 miles away and only has one technician familiar with the Leaf, and I haven't been able to contact him. The next closest dealer is about 75 miles away.
Thanks for any help or suggestions.

Jim, in Western Wisconsin

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What do you see when you bring up your Climate Control screen? Push the blue e(to the lower right of the screen) and then push the upper right?? button on the screen. You should see a graphic showing the Kw draw of your climate control system, going from 0 to I believe 6kw. Mine generally hovers between 3kw and 6kw in extreme cold and 0-3kw in warmer weather(although my SL lacks the heat pump heater and just has the resistive heater) yours should be lower draws using the heat pump.
In your case it sounds like your heat pump must be working(get heat in warmer garage) but it sounds like your resistive heater(that kicks in below 20f) may not be coming on or burnt out.....

The other replies got me working on this further. I have now looked into the manuals to see what might make sense to me.
I agree with

LeftieBiker, "The car should provide heat at all temps".

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But there is a limit to the power available to the heating system so at some point it won't provide enough heat. The faster you are moving and the lower the outside temp, the more power is needed to maintain the cabin temp. Just what that outside temp is I haven't been able to determine, at least not yet. Keep in mind that everything I'm looking at is on my SV which was built in Jan 2014. There may be differences. I hadn't realize I had both a heat pump and electric until now.
The PTC is the high tech ceramic electric heater that kicks in when needed. Of course it could be burnt out as suggested, but there are a number of other reasons it won't kick in. Starting with a blown fuse.
The amount of power sent to it is set by the A/C auto amp. controller which checks a half dozen sensors and the signal from the heat pump controller to make the decision. There could be a problem in that process.
From what I've gotten thru so far (there are dozens of technical pages to wade thru) the best way to test at home may be to set the temp at 90 and put it in Auto Mode. Look at the Energy Use display and watch the Climate Control reading while driving around the block.
I did it and found that at 5F the meter quickly went up to 4 kW and then varied between 3 and 4kW while I went 35 mph for 5 miles . The car did warm up as I drove.
So I get heat at top fan speed. But as I like the quiet drive the Leaf provides I've never used Auto Mode and keep the fan in the lower 3 speed settings. I might need to change that if I want more heat. At lower fan speeds the meter dropped to 1kW or less and I got much less heat.

I don't know if this is normal operation yet. Perhaps others have more experience and can chime in with their numbers.

Below zero, the automatic mode on the heater is nearly ineffective as it's blowing mostly cold air. One way around this is to reduce the fan speed manually and you'll get some heat. Preheating helps as well.

Simple question, are you in ECO mode?

In ECO mode, the Leaf tames the output of the heaters (and AC). So in -20C weather, you're not going to be toasty inside the car. In ECO mode, my Leaf likes to keep the HVAC draw in the 1.5KW range. Well below the needed 3KW+ to heat up the car in sub-zero temperatures quickly. However with it running for hours, it does indeed warm the cabin up... eventually.

It is possible that either the heat pump portion/AC and/or the PTC heater has died.

If you're still under 3 year/36K warranty, if it's reproducible, I'd get it looked at before the warranty expires pronto! Fixing either could be expensive.

Thanks for all the responses. When I wasn't getting any heat, the Energy Use display and my Leaf Spy were showing no power usage by the heating/AC systems. Also, I do have the car in "ECO" mode so the next time the temps are near zero I'll take it out of ECO and see if that makes any difference. Today it warmed up outside into the teens above zero and the heat seemed to work okay. We have always been more concerned with get maximum miles per kilowatt-hour so usually have the heat set low and used the heated seats and steering wheel and appropriate clothing to stay comfortable in the car. We drove air cooled VW Beetles and buses for many many years so we look on heat as a nice luxury in a car--but we were getting used to the nice features of the Leaf.
And, yes, our 2013 SV does have the heat pump for heating and air conditioning and I am familiar with reduced efficiency of the system in the cold as we partially heat our house with mini-split heat pumps (those and the Leaf use up some of the surplus our solar electric system generates during the calendar year).
Thanks again for all the helpful comments and suggestions.

Jim

WisJim said:

We have always been more concerned with get maximum miles per kilowatt so usually have the heat set low and used the heated seats and steering wheel and appropriate clothing to stay comfortable in the car.

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You mean, miles per kilowatt hour.

The seat heaters and heated steering wheel use minimal power compared to driving or running the heater.

Yes, I meant miles per kilowatt hour. I know better, not sure how that made it out of my keyboard. I edited my post to correct that error.

Jim

2k1Toaster said:

Simple question, are you in ECO mode?

In ECO mode, the Leaf tames the output of the heaters (and AC). So in -20C weather, you're not going to be toasty inside the car. In ECO mode, my Leaf likes to keep the HVAC draw in the 1.5KW range. Well below the needed 3KW+ to heat up the car in sub-zero temperatures quickly. However with it running for hours, it does indeed warm the cabin up... eventually.

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That is a good point that I personally forget about because I basically leave my ECO on all the time on my '13S. My '12SL that is parked outside and has the most problem heating goes out of ECO whenever it's powered off/on so for my morning warmup routine it's out of ECO mode, I only double shift it into ECO once I start driving. I'll have to play with things changing the ECO setting and see how much it effects things, I do know not on ECO the heater generally draws 6kw during extreme cold.

Jim I bet the resistance heater has failed and the only time you get heat is when it's warm enough for the car to use the heat pump mode, that a bummer up here I don't think there is much you can do, again I would guess it is a burned out resistance heater and even if it was a fuse it should be feed from the traction pack at about the 400vdc. I wonder where that fuse is?

BrockWI said:

even if it was a fuse it should be feed from the traction pack at about the 400vdc. I wonder where that fuse is?

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I had mentioned a fuse after reading "PTC heater high voltage circuit is open" as a possible cause for "PTC heater circuit system malfunction".
Turns out there is no fuse directly in line with the PTC or the electric compressor for that matter. But the PTC circuit board can shut it down due to high temp (115C) or a number of other issues. It will reset once it cools down but it is supposed to set a DTC.
If one has a way to look at the diagnostic codes (DTC) such as LeafSpy, the relevant codes for the PTC are D27xx series and U1000 U1010 B2578 B2579 B257B B257C B2581 B2582 B2630 B2631 for the various sensors. Mine doesn't show any codes tripped but I wonder if the PTC output air sensor is sending a proper signal. It is the final sensor in the air flow lineup. If any of the sensors get a little wonky it would mess the system up.
There was also mention that using "Consult", Nissan's diagnostic tool, one can adjust the output air temp value in the A/C auto amp. controller logic. Not sure I want to be spending $100/hour to have the dealer's tech learning all this though.

I think that you may be overthinking this. There have been numerous PTC failures in the 2013 leaf, and I would expect a few in the 2014 as well.

LeftieBiker said:

I think that you may be overthinking this. There have been numerous PTC failures in the 2013 leaf, and I would expect a few in the 2014 as well.

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Perhaps, but as I said earlier, in my test I saw over 4kW, I don't believe the electric compressor alone draws that much. So the PTC seems to be using some power. Also there are no codes showing up. Have you seen the specs on the compressor. Someone had mentioned 500W but seems like that isn't the max. Although at 300% efficiency that would be 1500W of heat.
And today the heat worked well. As long as I kept the fan on 3 bars or above.

My leaf was a November model 2013 its ptc heater had failed too, got it replaced, got heat now!

Heat pump runs up to -12C
Main heater runs to -60! but battery goes fast as it runs balls out at those temps

When I had my 2013 the PTC died. The heat pump would produce some heat, but when it got really cold it couldn't keep up. If you are within warranty, get it fixed ASAP, otherwise it is an expensive part.

Our Leaf isn't in warranty--any idea of cost of replacing the PTC? Are there any fuses that would affect the operation of the heating system? I haven't found a fuse chart, and the ones near the fuses in the car, on the fuse covers, have lots of abbreviations that aren't obvious to me. I'd like to avoid removing and checking most of the fuses on the off chance that one of them might be affecting the heat, especially if none of them do affect the heating system.
Thanks!

Jim, in Western Wisconsin

WisJim said:

Our Leaf isn't in warranty--any idea of cost of replacing the PTC? Are there any fuses that would affect the operation of the heating system? I haven't found a fuse chart, and the ones near the fuses in the car, on the fuse covers, have lots of abbreviations that aren't obvious to me. I'd like to avoid removing and checking most of the fuses on the off chance that one of them might be affecting the heat, especially if none of them do affect the heating system.
Thanks!
Jim, in Western Wisconsin

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I have a 2104 so I don't want to give you info from that manual. I do know that the "HEATER - 2013 NISSAN LEAF (B714300Q0D)" is listed as "DISCONTINUED PART" on some sites and $1240.15 on others.
I find the shop manual to be the best source of info is even if it is an investment in $ and time to wade thru it. For $20 one can get 24 hour access at http://www.nissan-techinfo.com/deptsubs.aspx

I downloaded and saved the pdf's for the 2014. My heater does not have a fuse on the fuse blocks. But it can be shut down by it's control board.
The air flow and controller logic diagrams helped a lot. Plus you'll have replacement instructions if you go that route.
Have you looked at the diagnostic codes yet with LeafSpy or a code reader?
You mentioned in a previous post that it draws 6kW when Eco is off. Was that before the problem? What does it draw now?