LeftieBiker
Posts: 6557
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2013 Leaf SV losing battery capacity checked with LeafSpy lite

Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:45 pm

There is no need to run the battery dangerously (for your) low. Just try to get it hot and keep it hot and full as much as possible.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

Swamibob
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:15 pm
Delivery Date: 19 May 2013
Leaf Number: 404033
Location: Florida

Re: 2013 Leaf SV losing battery capacity checked with LeafSpy lite

Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:55 am

I just found a screenshot of any earlier leafspy reading I did in October of last year vs this month. The one on the left was taken 7 weeks after purchasing the leaf when it was saying 12 bars still.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/acy97tv6hg0sqqh/battery%20stats%20Oct2015%20vs%20DEC2016.jpg?dl=0
Last edited by Swamibob on Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

powersurge
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: 2013 Leaf SV losing battery capacity checked with LeafSpy lite

Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:47 am

According to the pictures, you drove 6K miles in w2 months??

Swamibob
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:15 pm
Delivery Date: 19 May 2013
Leaf Number: 404033
Location: Florida

Re: 2013 Leaf SV losing battery capacity checked with LeafSpy lite

Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:50 am

The second picture should be 2016 as I stated in the message, oct '15 to dec '16. I will fix it

SageBrush
Posts: 853
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2013 Leaf SV losing battery capacity checked with LeafSpy lite

Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:58 am

The OP sounds like a battery close to warranty replacement although the 70 mile range displayed by the GOM is surprising. What miles/kWh factor is the car using ? What is the kWh capacity reported by LEAFspy ? What is the actual driving range at 60-65 mph going from full charge to Low battery warning ?
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

Swamibob
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:15 pm
Delivery Date: 19 May 2013
Leaf Number: 404033
Location: Florida

Re: 2013 Leaf SV losing battery capacity checked with LeafSpy lite

Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:13 am

SageBrush wrote:The OP sounds like a battery close to warranty replacement although the 70 mile range displayed by the GOM is surprising. What miles/kWh factor is the car using ? What is the kWh capacity reported by LEAFspy ? What is the actual driving range at 60-65 mph going from full charge to Low battery warning ?


How can i tell what miles/kWh factor it is using? I only have leafspy lite so I don't think it gives all of that info. All I see is the screen I posted, the max voltage difference, and a battery temp screen that shows sensors 1, 2 and 4 but no 3, not sure if that is normal either. I do know that the miles go down way faster than the estimation that it gives when I first start it. One thing I did notice today when getting the screenshots, I had it set to a 2011 leaf instead of 2013 leaf in leafspy. I hope that doesn't skew the numbers. I can tell you that from 80% charge, I either hit low battery warning right before i get home or almost hit it every day on my 30 mile round trip commute if you can figure anything from that and it is mostly 40-50mph driving.

SageBrush
Posts: 853
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2013 Leaf SV losing battery capacity checked with LeafSpy lite

Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:07 pm

Swamibob wrote:
SageBrush wrote:The OP sounds like a battery close to warranty replacement although the 70 mile range displayed by the GOM is surprising. What miles/kWh factor is the car using ? What is the kWh capacity reported by LEAFspy ? What is the actual driving range at 60-65 mph going from full charge to Low battery warning ?


How can i tell what miles/kWh factor it is using? I only have leafspy lite so I don't think it gives all of that info. All I see is the screen I posted, the max voltage difference, and a battery temp screen that shows sensors 1, 2 and 4 but no 3, not sure if that is normal either. I do know that the miles go down way faster than the estimation that it gives when I first start it. One thing I did notice today when getting the screenshots, I had it set to a 2011 leaf instead of 2013 leaf in leafspy. I hope that doesn't skew the numbers. I can tell you that from 80% charge, I either hit low battery warning right before i get home or almost hit it every day on my 30 mile round trip commute if you can figure anything from that and it is mostly 40-50mph driving.
Your self-reported driving range matches LEAFspy, so the GOM is just way, way off.

The calc goes like this: if the battery has degraded 33% as LEAFspy says, your (when new) range of 75 miles would now be 75*2/3 = 50 miles. Since you charge to 80% SOC, the range at the start of the day would be 50*0.8 = 40 miles. Subtract the buffer still available when the low battery alert sounds and you are right around your daily experience.

You might as well charge to 100% from now on and use AC freely for a better daily driving experience and to hasten the battery towards it's warranty replacement. I don't know how much of the fast degradation can be mitigated when you start off fresh with a new battery, but consider these strategies if the weather is warm:
    Charge outside during the coolest hours of the night
    Let the battery cool down before beginning a charge
    Continue charging to 80% max or below most of the time. Perhaps 100% once a month is enough ?
    Set your charge routine to finish about the time you leave in the AM if possible and the hour is still cool
If this was my car and I was starting out with a new battery I wanted to pamper, I would figure on using about half the new range of 75 miles a day. Since that is about 50% of full SOC I would charge to 75% and expect to return home at 25%. This would take ~ 7 kWh of battery charge, or ~ 8 kWh from the wall each day. If you need help figuring out charging duration post the EVSE you use.

As an example, my EVSE is 240 volts and 32 Amp so outlet is able to send 240*32/1000 = 7.68 kW. My car tops off at 6.6 kW to the battery so it would take me a little over one hour to charge 7 kWh. If I left for work in the morning at 7am I would start the charge routine at 5:55 am.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

SageBrush
Posts: 853
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2013 Leaf SV losing battery capacity checked with LeafSpy lite

Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:08 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Swamibob wrote:
SageBrush wrote:The OP sounds like a battery close to warranty replacement although the 70 mile range displayed by the GOM is surprising. What miles/kWh factor is the car using ? What is the kWh capacity reported by LEAFspy ? What is the actual driving range at 60-65 mph going from full charge to Low battery warning ?


How can i tell what miles/kWh factor it is using? I only have leafspy lite so I don't think it gives all of that info. All I see is the screen I posted, the max voltage difference, and a battery temp screen that shows sensors 1, 2 and 4 but no 3, not sure if that is normal either. I do know that the miles go down way faster than the estimation that it gives when I first start it. One thing I did notice today when getting the screenshots, I had it set to a 2011 leaf instead of 2013 leaf in leafspy. I hope that doesn't skew the numbers. I can tell you that from 80% charge, I either hit low battery warning right before i get home or almost hit it every day on my 30 mile round trip commute if you can figure anything from that and it is mostly 40-50mph driving.
Your self-reported driving range matches LEAFspy, so the GOM is just way, way off.

The calc goes like this: if the battery has degraded 33% as LEAFspy says, your (when new) range of 75 miles would now be 75*2/3 = 50 miles. Since you charge to 80% SOC, the range at the start of the day would be 50*0.8 = 40 miles. Subtract the buffer still available when the low battery alert sounds and you are right around your daily experience.

You might as well charge to 100% from now on and use AC freely for a better daily driving experience and to hasten the battery towards it's warranty replacement. I don't know how much of the fast degradation can be mitigated when you start off fresh with a new battery, but consider these strategies if the weather is warm:
    Charge outside during the coolest hours of the night
    Let the battery cool down before beginning a charge
    Continue charging to 80% max or below most of the time. Perhaps 100% once a month is enough ?
    Set your charge routine to finish about the time you leave in the AM if possible and the hour is still cool. Alternatively you can wait a few hours after you return home to charge for half the daily needed charge and then charge the other half a few hours later. LEAFspy is your friend since it reports battery sensor temperatures. A little trial and error should help you come up with a good charging routine.
Bad behavior to hasten battery degradation are the opposite of the above.

If this was my car and I was starting out with a new battery I wanted to pamper, I would figure on using about half the new range of 75 miles a day. Since that is about 50% of full SOC I would charge to 75% and expect to return home at 25%. This would take ~ 7 kWh of battery charge, or ~ 8 kWh from the wall each day. If you need help figuring out charging duration post the EVSE you use.

As an example, my EVSE is 240 volts and 32 Amp so outlet is able to send 240*32/1000 = 7.68 kW. My car tops off at 6.6 kW to the battery so it would take me a little over one hour to charge 7 kWh. If I left for work in the morning at 7am I would start the charge routine at 5:55 am.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

Swamibob
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:15 pm
Delivery Date: 19 May 2013
Leaf Number: 404033
Location: Florida

Re: 2013 Leaf SV losing battery capacity checked with LeafSpy lite

Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:14 pm

SageBrush wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
Swamibob wrote:
How can i tell what miles/kWh factor it is using? I only have leafspy lite so I don't think it gives all of that info. All I see is the screen I posted, the max voltage difference, and a battery temp screen that shows sensors 1, 2 and 4 but no 3, not sure if that is normal either. I do know that the miles go down way faster than the estimation that it gives when I first start it. One thing I did notice today when getting the screenshots, I had it set to a 2011 leaf instead of 2013 leaf in leafspy. I hope that doesn't skew the numbers. I can tell you that from 80% charge, I either hit low battery warning right before i get home or almost hit it every day on my 30 mile round trip commute if you can figure anything from that and it is mostly 40-50mph driving.
Your self-reported driving range matches LEAFspy, so the GOM is just way, way off.

The calc goes like this: if the battery has degraded 33% as LEAFspy says, your (when new) range of 75 miles would now be 75*2/3 = 50 miles. Since you charge to 80% SOC, the range at the start of the day would be 50*0.8 = 40 miles. Subtract the buffer still available when the low battery alert sounds and you are right around your daily experience.

You might as well charge to 100% from now on and use AC freely for a better daily driving experience and to hasten the battery towards it's warranty replacement. I don't know how much of the fast degradation can be mitigated when you start off fresh with a new battery, but consider these strategies if the weather is warm:
    Charge outside during the coolest hours of the night
    Let the battery cool down before beginning a charge
    Continue charging to 80% max or below most of the time. Perhaps 100% once a month is enough ?
    Set your charge routine to finish about the time you leave in the AM if possible and the hour is still cool. Alternatively you can wait a few hours after you return home to charge for half the daily needed charge and then charge the other half a few hours later. LEAFspy is your friend since it reports battery sensor temperatures. A little trial and error should help you come up with a good charging routine.
Bad behavior to hasten battery degradation are the opposite of the above.

If this was my car and I was starting out with a new battery I wanted to pamper, I would figure on using about half the new range of 75 miles a day. Since that is about 50% of full SOC I would charge to 75% and expect to return home at 25%. This would take ~ 7 kWh of battery charge, or ~ 8 kWh from the wall each day. If you need help figuring out charging duration post the EVSE you use.

As an example, my EVSE is 240 volts and 32 Amp so outlet is able to send 240*32/1000 = 7.68 kW. My car tops off at 6.6 kW to the battery so it would take me a little over one hour to charge 7 kWh. If I left for work in the morning at 7am I would start the charge routine at 5:55 am.


So you are saying with a new battery installed if i get it changed out under warranty, It starts out with 75 miles range from 100% charge? I was thinking a new battery was more than that. I saw a guy on craigslist who said his was covered under warranty and his gauge showed 115 at 100%.

On my daily commute of about 30 miles it usually takes mine a little over an hour to recharge. I have a juicebox 40 hooked up on a 50 amp breaker. When i check my app, it always hows it charging at 6.66kW, then drops down lower near the end if I am charging to 100%. I guess there is a way to program the car to start charging at a specific time so if i leave for work at 7:25 i'd prob have it start the charge at 6:15 or maybe 6:00 to be safe.

I thought a lot of people act like the newer battery you don't have to worry about charging to 100% anymore. Is it still advantageous to only charge to 80 or less? I would guess so since lithium ion batteries they say they like to be in the 20%-80% charge range all the time.

Thanks for your info, you got me thinking about other aspects of the charge routine. I was thinking that waiting to charge later was just to save money if your electric goes to a lower rate at night (mine doesn't) but as far as heat damage it makes sense as well.

SageBrush
Posts: 853
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2013 Leaf SV losing battery capacity checked with LeafSpy lite

Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:13 pm

Swamibob wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Your self-reported driving range matches LEAFspy, so the GOM is just way, way off.

The calc goes like this: if the battery has degraded 33% as LEAFspy says, your (when new) range of 75 miles would now be 75*2/3 = 50 miles. Since you charge to 80% SOC, the range at the start of the day would be 50*0.8 = 40 miles. Subtract the buffer still available when the low battery alert sounds and you are right around your daily experience.

You might as well charge to 100% from now on and use AC freely for a better daily driving experience and to hasten the battery towards it's warranty replacement. I don't know how much of the fast degradation can be mitigated when you start off fresh with a new battery, but consider these strategies if the weather is warm:
    Charge outside during the coolest hours of the night
    Let the battery cool down before beginning a charge
    Continue charging to 80% max or below most of the time. Perhaps 100% once a month is enough ?
    Set your charge routine to finish about the time you leave in the AM if possible and the hour is still cool. Alternatively you can wait a few hours after you return home to charge for half the daily needed charge and then charge the other half a few hours later. LEAFspy is your friend since it reports battery sensor temperatures. A little trial and error should help you come up with a good charging routine.
Bad behavior to hasten battery degradation are the opposite of the above.

If this was my car and I was starting out with a new battery I wanted to pamper, I would figure on using about half the new range of 75 miles a day. Since that is about 50% of full SOC I would charge to 75% and expect to return home at 25%. This would take ~ 7 kWh of battery charge, or ~ 8 kWh from the wall each day. If you need help figuring out charging duration post the EVSE you use.

As an example, my EVSE is 240 volts and 32 Amp so outlet is able to send 240*32/1000 = 7.68 kW. My car tops off at 6.6 kW to the battery so it would take me a little over one hour to charge 7 kWh. If I left for work in the morning at 7am I would start the charge routine at 5:55 am.

So you are saying with a new battery installed if i get it changed out under warranty, It starts out with 75 miles range from 100% charge?
Right. EPA says 84 miles but that presumes using the battery down to zero, and it is pretty common to lose a couple percent of the nominal battery capacity pretty quickly in the beginning. This is a quirk of present day manufacturing of all Li-ion batteries so far as I know. So you *might* get 80 EPA miles from a brand new battery but I would not count on it and since the discussion is regarding long battery life behaviors, it is really not relevant.

I guess there is a way to program the car to start charging at a specific time
Indeed. Check out the user manual

Is it still advantageous to only charge to 80 or less?
Yes

Thanks for your info
You are quite welcome
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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