webeleafowners
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:57 pm

Thank you to Orient Express for the above post. It is very clear. I'll wait for the message.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

happyfunball
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:30 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 001393

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:38 am

Reading those scans from Nissan, it seems clear this won't affect range, just the display on the dash and SOH readings in LeafSpy. If you have reduced range this won't help :(

cwerdna
Posts: 7991
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:45 am

^^^
Would be very interesting to compare a 3 bar loser (before fix) with this fix applied vs. a 30 kWh car with the fix applied that was 12 bars before and after fix.

From https://www.facebook.com/groups/NissanL ... 456794901/, where I first learned of the bulletin FAQ eventually (you may need to log into FB to see the same FAQ pages posted (days after the work was completed) in the comments), that guy's car as a side effect got his capacity bars reset. That might be required (car/BMS has to relearn the pack?) or his 12 bars might be actually be the "accurate" amount.

I'm thinking of a tests like: steady speed range test w/identical tires and tire pressure until turtle or well below VLBW w/no HVAC usage in dry weather and kWh count of car being charged from turtle to full for the above two cases. Would need to have near identical supply voltages though: no comparing to 208 vs 240 volts charging. Both need to be ~208 or both need to be 240.

And, of course, if we have a 30 kWh car that's down 3 bars after the fix has been applied, the above data would be interesting.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

dwl
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:06 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 112097
Location: New Zealand

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:38 am

cwerdna wrote:I'm thinking of a tests like: steady speed range test w/identical tires and tire pressure until turtle or well below VLBW w/no HVAC usage in dry weather and kWh count of car being charged from turtle to full for the above two cases. Would need to have near identical supply voltages though: no comparing to 208 vs 240 volts charging. Both need to be ~208 or both need to be 240.

One of the issues with the BMS reporting is the point at which LBW and VLBW are turned on relative to the acutal capacity remaining in the pack. We are relying on a calculation that is estimating 4kWh and 2kWh respectively and this may be wrong on some cars.

A range test that notes when these warnings light up adds the dimension of perceived range (which may change with the update) while running well below VLBW perhaps until flat is more related to the battery capacity (which probably won't change with the update).
2014 S - 6000 km Jan 2016; 45000 km May 2017 95% SoH; 68,000 km Mar 2018 90% SoH

lorenfb
Posts: 1802
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:53 am

dwl wrote:
cwerdna wrote:I'm thinking of a tests like: steady speed range test w/identical tires and tire pressure until turtle or well below VLBW w/no HVAC usage in dry weather and kWh count of car being charged from turtle to full for the above two cases. Would need to have near identical supply voltages though: no comparing to 208 vs 240 volts charging. Both need to be ~208 or both need to be 240.

One of the issues with the BMS reporting is the point at which LBW and VLBW are turned on relative to the acutal capacity remaining in the pack. We are relying on a calculation that is estimating 4kWh and 2kWh respectively and this may be wrong on some cars.

A range test that notes when these warnings light up adds the dimension of perceived range (which may change with the update) while running well below VLBW perhaps until flat is more related to the battery capacity (which probably won't change with the update).


And how about a simple LeafSpy test before & after, measuring all the key battery parameters, e.g. SOH, Hx, and most importantly Ahrs?
Those three parameters should not change if the "fix" is to just change the thresholds for the bar drop points, right? Hopefully, this "fix"
doesn't fully reset all the battery parameters, e.g. SOH == 95 - 100% after the "fix".
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

WetEV
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:33 am

lorenfb wrote:And how about a simple LeafSpy test before & after, measuring all the key battery parameters, e.g. SOH, Hx, and most importantly Ahrs?


LeafSpy just reads out the BMS estimates of battery pack condition. The BMS estimates are a potential issue, as these (in a 2014) can vary at least +12% -3% from my best battery capacity estimate from a charging energy test. LeafSpy can't be more accurate than the BMS.


lorenfb wrote:Those three parameters should not change if the "fix" is to just change the thresholds for the bar drop points, right? Hopefully, this "fix" doesn't fully reset all the battery parameters, e.g. SOH == 95 - 100% after the "fix".


If the issue is that the BMS estimates are too low, then the SOH and Ahr numbers should increase after the firmware update and enough time to recover from the BMS reset. The key question is: "Does the recharge energy and/or distance actually driven to empty more closely match the BMS estimates before the firmware upgrade? Or after the firmware upgrade?"
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

lorenfb
Posts: 1802
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:45 am

WetEV wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Those three parameters should not change if the "fix" is to just change the thresholds for the bar drop points, right? Hopefully, this "fix" doesn't fully reset all the battery parameters, e.g. SOH == 95 - 100% after the "fix".


If the issue is that the BMS estimates are too low, then the SOH and Ahr numbers should increase after the firmware update and enough time to recover from the BMS reset. The key question is: "Does the recharge energy and/or distance actually driven to empty more closely match the BMS estimates before the firmware upgrade? Or after the firmware upgrade?"


Right, then do the Leaf Spy tests before and after! It's another reference point about the "reset". How difficult is that?
And who really cares about the range estimates of the GOM anyway? Nissan is really just concerned about the bars
dropping and its liability.
Last edited by lorenfb on Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

webeleafowners
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:45 am

So when they refer to the battery capacity level gauge are they reffering to the 12 health bars on the right?

I know. Rookie question.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

lorenfb
Posts: 1802
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:46 am

webeleafowners wrote:So when they refer to the battery capacity level gauge are they reffering to the 12 health bars on the right?

I know. Rookie question.


Yes.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

webeleafowners
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:47 am

lorenfb wrote:
webeleafowners wrote:So when they refer to the battery capacity level gauge are they reffering to the 12 health bars on the right?

I know. Rookie question.


Yes.


Tanks dude.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

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