SageBrush
Posts: 1432
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:40 pm

ironmanco wrote:
SageBrush wrote:You are confused about the plugging in routine. No problem plugging in when you get home; the smart behavior is to delay charging until a cooler time for all the routine days when the next use is the next day.


This drives me crazy. Wouldn't a simple software/firmware update allow for better control of the battery charging? Instead of all of these smart chargers, why can't the embedded software/UI in the car accommodate the same functions that OpenEVSE, Juicebox, etc all do?

The above is more of a rhetorical question. I know it's possible and I know that Nissan made design decisions to only provide the functionality they did...but it still doesn't make it ok :-)

The single timer in my car works just fine for my family. More complex requirements can be solved by a $150 add-on that the JuiceBox people sell.

<<shrug>> I have bigger fish to fry
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

ironmanco
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:26 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2016
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:46 pm

SageBrush wrote:
ironmanco wrote:
SageBrush wrote:You are confused about the plugging in routine. No problem plugging in when you get home; the smart behavior is to delay charging until a cooler time for all the routine days when the next use is the next day.


This drives me crazy. Wouldn't a simple software/firmware update allow for better control of the battery charging? Instead of all of these smart chargers, why can't the embedded software/UI in the car accommodate the same functions that OpenEVSE, Juicebox, etc all do?

The above is more of a rhetorical question. I know it's possible and I know that Nissan made design decisions to only provide the functionality they did...but it still doesn't make it ok :-)

The single timer in my car works just fine for my family. More complex requirements can be solved by a $150 add-on that the JuiceBox people sell.

<<shrug>> I have bigger fish to fry


Yep - doesn't work for us. We have wildly varying schedules in the morning and multiple charge requirements. Not sure what $150 add-on you are referring to but if you are talking about the $199 juiceplug you are off by about 25% :-)

Remember - there's a reason that all these companies are providing intelligent charging control. It's not because the love to develop apps for the fun of it. It's kind of like looking back at the most popular jailbroken applications - they are now fundamental aspects of iPhone iOS.
2016 Nissan Leaf SL Deep Blue Pearl
Mfg 12/15 Del 1/16 30 Oct 2017 34172 mi Ahr 67.69 SOH 85% Hx 78.55%
Charging: evseupgrade L2 charging 30A circuit @ 24A shared garage heater circuit (ask me)

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LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4342
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Boca Raton FL

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:29 pm

Play around with the charging start and end times all you want I really don't think it makes any significant difference. The problem is these batteries just don't hold up in non-cold climates.
And yes, increasingly losing range up to the point where the replacement kicks in is an issue. By the time the third bar drops the car is of pretty limited usefulness.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue

johnlocke
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:27 pm

I took the time to check the battery voltage at various states of charge today. Started at 100% charge according to the dash monitor and 394.48 VDC (4.11 VDC per cell) The car is a 2016 30KWH with 72% SOH
charge battery cell
95% 389.44 4.05
90% 385.11 4.01
85% 383.75 4.00
75% 377.56 3.93
18% 346.02 3.60 LBW

The lowest I've ever taken the battery is 6% or just below VLBW That came out to 318 VDC or 3.31 VDC per cell. First it's obvious that battery voltage vs charge is non-linear ( at least according to Nissan's percentage gauge). The second is that there appears to to be little difference between charging to 90% vs 85%. The biggest drop occurs between 100% and 95%. Charging to 90% would look to be a fairly conservative strategy and discharging down to no less than LBW seems to be reasonable.

If possible could someone else do the same thing with their car? I would particularly like to verify the battery voltages for LBW and VLBW. Since these seem to be fixed at 50 GID's and 25 GID's, the voltages may vary depending on SOH.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

rcm4453
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:35 pm
Leaf Number: 304133
Location: Wayzata, MN

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:00 am

SageBrush wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote: That said, with an eight year warranty if Nissan wants to throw a new battery in every couple years do we really care?
Of course we care. Otherwise consumers have to adjust their range estimates of the battery when new down by 40% or so to account for degradation before the warranty kicks in. And that is before the Winter-time correction.

You are confused about the plugging in routine. No problem plugging in when you get home; the smart behavior is to delay charging until a cooler time for all the routine days when the next use is the next day.

It is easy to say what "should" be engineered to accommodate any and all morons, but the car cost then increases.


They need to be engineered to accommodate the mainstream buyers. Mainstream buyers are not going to mess with charge timers every day. They're not going to bother worrying about the battery temp when they charge. They will just want to plug it in when they get home and unplug it when they leave for work. Heck a lot of them will think plugging in every day is too much to do and won't bother until wireless charging is mainstream! There's a big difference between EV enthusiasts like most here and the average Joe mainstream driver. Bottom line is Nissan will have to fix this battery problem if they want their BEVs to go mainstream.

SageBrush
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Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:53 am

rcm4453 wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote: That said, with an eight year warranty if Nissan wants to throw a new battery in every couple years do we really care?
Of course we care. Otherwise consumers have to adjust their range estimates of the battery when new down by 40% or so to account for degradation before the warranty kicks in. And that is before the Winter-time correction.

You are confused about the plugging in routine. No problem plugging in when you get home; the smart behavior is to delay charging until a cooler time for all the routine days when the next use is the next day.

It is easy to say what "should" be engineered to accommodate any and all morons, but the car cost then increases.


They need to be engineered to accommodate the mainstream buyers. Mainstream buyers are not going to mess with charge timers every day. They're not going to bother worrying about the battery temp when they charge. They will just want to plug it in when they get home and unplug it when they leave for work. Heck a lot of them will think plugging in every day is too much to do and won't bother until wireless charging is mainstream! There's a big difference between EV enthusiasts like most here and the average Joe mainstream driver. Bottom line is Nissan will have to fix this battery problem if they want their BEVs to go mainstream.

Around 15 millions cars are sold in the US each year, while LEAF sales number in ~ 30k a year
It is going to be a while before mainstream stupidity is a force to be reckoned with
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4342
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Boca Raton FL

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:42 am

Plugging an EV in when you get home is stupidity?
Maybe I might or might not need to go out later in the evening. Maybe I want to be prepared. What if I have to take a sick child to the emergency room at 1AM and the charge timer doesn't start until 2AM? Apparently Nissan doesn't care about children. :lol:
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue

rcm4453
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:35 pm
Leaf Number: 304133
Location: Wayzata, MN

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:38 am

SageBrush wrote:
rcm4453 wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Of course we care. Otherwise consumers have to adjust their range estimates of the battery when new down by 40% or so to account for degradation before the warranty kicks in. And that is before the Winter-time correction.

You are confused about the plugging in routine. No problem plugging in when you get home; the smart behavior is to delay charging until a cooler time for all the routine days when the next use is the next day.

It is easy to say what "should" be engineered to accommodate any and all morons, but the car cost then increases.


They need to be engineered to accommodate the mainstream buyers. Mainstream buyers are not going to mess with charge timers every day. They're not going to bother worrying about the battery temp when they charge. They will just want to plug it in when they get home and unplug it when they leave for work. Heck a lot of them will think plugging in every day is too much to do and won't bother until wireless charging is mainstream! There's a big difference between EV enthusiasts like most here and the average Joe mainstream driver. Bottom line is Nissan will have to fix this battery problem if they want their BEVs to go mainstream.

Around 15 millions cars are sold in the US each year, while LEAF sales number in ~ 30k a year
It is going to be a while before mainstream stupidity is a force to be reckoned with



Oh wow mainstream stupidity?! Really?! So you think the battery in the Leaf is acceptable? Look I hate to bust your bubble but it's total crap, the consumer shouldn't have to jump through all these hoops (mess with charge timers, plan around battery temp & SOC) just to try and save a crappy battery. People who bought a Tesla, Volt or Bolt don't have to bother with any of this so why should Leaf owners? After all it's a car not an ongoing science project or math problem!

SageBrush
Posts: 1432
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:56 am

rcm4453 wrote:
Oh wow mainstream stupidity?! Really?! So you think the battery in the Leaf is acceptable? Look I hate to bust your bubble but it's total crap, the consumer shouldn't have to jump through all these hoops (mess with charge timers, plan around battery temp & SOC) just to try and save a crappy battery. People who bought a Tesla, Volt or Bolt don't have to bother with any of this so why should Leaf owners? After all it's a car not an ongoing science project or math problem!


I think the LEAF battery is somewhere between poor and garbage.
But anyone who thinks that trivial arithmetic at worse, or setting a timer is a "science project" is a moron.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

User avatar
LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4342
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:38 pm

SageBrush wrote:But anyone who thinks that trivial arithmetic at worse, or setting a timer is a "science project" is a moron.

(ignoring your condescending attitude) As I said, I don't want to delay charging when I get home, I want to start charging right away in case something comes up and I need to go somewhere. Sorry if that makes 99.999% of the car buying public morons, but the reality is most have no interest in learning about or dealing with these limitations. Gas cars present none of these issues and they are cheaper.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue

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