LeftieBiker
Posts: 7380
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Battery Capacity Diminished 2016

Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:09 pm

Charging the battery to 100% is not the problem here.


No, obviously not. In fact, it's being suggested as a possible solution.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

ElectricEddy
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:42 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2016
Leaf Number: 313506
Location: Nanaimo, B.C.

Re: Battery Capacity Diminished 2016

Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:49 pm

Try to contact another Leaf owner in your area with Leafspy so as to determine the battery stats for record.
It would be beneficial to know if this bar drop is caused by equal degradation evenly over all the cells or by defects in one cell pair or module.
Please update us with cell voltage differentials and amp hour reading and I guess the state of health and HX (internal resistance) as well.
Thanks
Pearl White Sl
mfd date 09/16

johnlocke
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: Battery Capacity Diminished 2016

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:59 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
johnlocke wrote:Charging the battery to 100% is not the problem here. First off, charging the battery to 100% actually only charges it to about 92% of full capacity. Nissan only allows the voltage in the cell to rise to 4.11v. A fully charged cell would register between 4.17and 4.20. I have over 25000 miles on my car and it gets a full charge every evening (over 400 L2 charges so far plus several dozen L3 charges). I live in San Diego east county. Summer temps here are similar to east L.A. or Las Vegas. I still have all 12 bars (although probably not for much longer) SOH is 85%.

Could you tell us your amp hour reading and SOH? If you don't have Leafspy PM me and I'll plug mine in to your car. Since we are both in San Diego it should be easy to arrange a meet. There are reports that the first bar doesn't drop until you hit an SOH of 80% That would be important for us to know since the 24KWH leafs drop the first bar at 85%. If Nissan is playing games here with the loss of bars ( and therefore with the warranty) we need to document it.


your statement is a litany of contradictions. You say charging to 100% is not the problem but your car only charges to 92% which means significant degradation. It should be charging to 97%. Also thinking (again as usual) you have one of the first 30 kwh packs and the later ones will prove to be much more durable...

Either way, getting a database going with LEAF Spy readings on when these bars are disappearing is vital. If a warranty is not going to happen until the pain level hits 10, we all want to know. Previously it was assumed the percentages would be the same meaning that a 30 kwh pack would see replacement at a level only slightly below the range of a new 24 kwh pack.

If replacement is not going to happen until the pack reaches a range near the replacement level of the 24 kwh pack, this would be a HUGE game changer. With the 100,000 mile warranty, one could be suffering for years waiting for that last bar to disappear!


You're missing the point, no Leaf charges the battery to it's full capacity. The BMS limits the cell charge to 4.11v. Full charge on a Li-ion is 4.17-4.20v. Total charge is related to voltage. At 4.11v a Li-ion cell has 92% of its maximum capacity available. The BMS also limits the discharge to 3.3v. At that point the cell has about 3-5% of its max charge left. If you wanted you could discharge the cell down to as low as 2.8v before damaging it. Cycling the cell from 4.2v to 2.8 v is tough on the cell so Nissan limits the the cycle to 4.11v to 3.3v. That lowers capacity by about 10% but significantly improves the number of cycles the battery can endure. There is a built in buffer for charging and discharging the battery. Deep discharge is worse than high charging but Nissan apparently doesn't think many people will routinely drive the car to turtle. I suspect most people try and stay above 20% charge most of the time.

Nissan's rated capacity is based on that cell voltage of 4.11v. You are at 100% charge whenever the cells are at 4.11v. What I'm suggesting is that charging to 100% doesn't stress the battery very much because there's still some buffer space left.

People who drive Leafs as taxis or Ubers charge the shit out of them all the time. They don't seem to have any higher failure rate than the average driver. If charging to 100% was all that bad, we would see a lot of complaints from those drivers about battery failures.

Although I do have an early pack, we are seeing complaints about low capacity packs from people with late build 16s. Some of those came right off the lot with low batteries. I do want to document as much as possible as evidence for future lawsuits. Nissan seems unlikely to acknowledge a problem until it's forced to. If Nissan monkeyed around with the bars again, they have opened themselves up for a massive lawsuit.
2016 SV
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12322
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Capacity Diminished 2016

Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:34 am

johnlocke wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
johnlocke wrote:Charging the battery to 100% is not the problem here. First off, charging the battery to 100% actually only charges it to about 92% of full capacity. Nissan only allows the voltage in the cell to rise to 4.11v. A fully charged cell would register between 4.17and 4.20. I have over 25000 miles on my car and it gets a full charge every evening (over 400 L2 charges so far plus several dozen L3 charges). I live in San Diego east county. Summer temps here are similar to east L.A. or Las Vegas. I still have all 12 bars (although probably not for much longer) SOH is 85%.

Could you tell us your amp hour reading and SOH? If you don't have Leafspy PM me and I'll plug mine in to your car. Since we are both in San Diego it should be easy to arrange a meet. There are reports that the first bar doesn't drop until you hit an SOH of 80% That would be important for us to know since the 24KWH leafs drop the first bar at 85%. If Nissan is playing games here with the loss of bars ( and therefore with the warranty) we need to document it.


your statement is a litany of contradictions. You say charging to 100% is not the problem but your car only charges to 92% which means significant degradation. It should be charging to 97%. Also thinking (again as usual) you have one of the first 30 kwh packs and the later ones will prove to be much more durable...

Either way, getting a database going with LEAF Spy readings on when these bars are disappearing is vital. If a warranty is not going to happen until the pain level hits 10, we all want to know. Previously it was assumed the percentages would be the same meaning that a 30 kwh pack would see replacement at a level only slightly below the range of a new 24 kwh pack.

If replacement is not going to happen until the pack reaches a range near the replacement level of the 24 kwh pack, this would be a HUGE game changer. With the 100,000 mile warranty, one could be suffering for years waiting for that last bar to disappear!


You're missing the point, no Leaf charges the battery to it's full capacity. The BMS limits the cell charge to 4.11v. Full charge on a Li-ion is 4.17-4.20v. Total charge is related to voltage. At 4.11v a Li-ion cell has 92% of its maximum capacity available. The BMS also limits the discharge to 3.3v. At that point the cell has about 3-5% of its max charge left. If you wanted you could discharge the cell down to as low as 2.8v before damaging it. Cycling the cell from 4.2v to 2.8 v is tough on the cell so Nissan limits the the cycle to 4.11v to 3.3v. That lowers capacity by about 10% but significantly improves the number of cycles the battery can endure. There is a built in buffer for charging and discharging the battery. Deep discharge is worse than high charging but Nissan apparently doesn't think many people will routinely drive the car to turtle. I suspect most people try and stay above 20% charge most of the time.

Nissan's rated capacity is based on that cell voltage of 4.11v. You are at 100% charge whenever the cells are at 4.11v. What I'm suggesting is that charging to 100% doesn't stress the battery very much because there's still some buffer space left.

People who drive Leafs as taxis or Ubers charge the shit out of them all the time. They don't seem to have any higher failure rate than the average driver. If charging to 100% was all that bad, we would see a lot of complaints from those drivers about battery failures.

Although I do have an early pack, we are seeing complaints about low capacity packs from people with late build 16s. Some of those came right off the lot with low batteries. I do want to document as much as possible as evidence for future lawsuits. Nissan seems unlikely to acknowledge a problem until it's forced to. If Nissan monkeyed around with the bars again, they have opened themselves up for a massive lawsuit.



I edited the formatting of my post for clarity. As mentioned above, I don't think his charging habits have played as much of a part as what may have happened before he got the car. lets focus on that.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Battery Capacity Diminished 2016

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:27 pm

LEAfSpy.

Until then no amount of guessing is going to help.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

User avatar
LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4348
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Boca Raton FL

Re: Battery Capacity Diminished 2016

Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:58 pm

Looks like the 2016 SV we're getting has lost its first bar, with less than 9k miles and only about 10 months in service. At that rate this car could be getting its battery replaced twice under warranty.

This car has been charged to 100% plenty of times, although not every night.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue

rt84vhf
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:33 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Oct 2016
Leaf Number: 303893
Location: OH

Re: Battery Capacity Diminished 2016

Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:13 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:I edited the formatting of my post for clarity. As mentioned above, I don't think his charging habits have played as much of a part as what may have happened before he got the car. lets focus on that.


My wife and I were talking about this very thing today. When we got her car, it had a few hundred miles on it. The recent destinations in the nav system seemed to indicate it frequented some places in town. Maybe sales people, maybe it was loaned, who knows. But it clearly didn't sit the entire time between the manufacture date and when we brought it home.

On the other hand, we know my car sat at a dealership in Texas for quite some time (7-8 months at least) before I got it. It had 50 miles on it when I got it.

As of yesterday,
Hers: 76 Ah, 96% SOH (now 6k miles)
Mine: 70 Ah, 88% SOH (now 3.5k miles)

We both do a lot of L1 (until we get our L2 installed next month). In our case, it indeed has a lot more to do with the first few months after assembly.

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 7260
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Battery Capacity Diminished 2016

Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:21 pm

OP, and another others who have lost capacity bars, can you please add your vehicle to http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... acity_Loss?

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 7260
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:21 pm

OP, and another others who have lost capacity bars, can you please add your vehicle to http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... acity_Loss?

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12322
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Capacity Diminished 2016

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:51 am

rt84vhf wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:I edited the formatting of my post for clarity. As mentioned above, I don't think his charging habits have played as much of a part as what may have happened before he got the car. lets focus on that.


My wife and I were talking about this very thing today. When we got her car, it had a few hundred miles on it. The recent destinations in the nav system seemed to indicate it frequented some places in town. Maybe sales people, maybe it was loaned, who knows. But it clearly didn't sit the entire time between the manufacture date and when we brought it home.

On the other hand, we know my car sat at a dealership in Texas for quite some time (7-8 months at least) before I got it. It had 50 miles on it when I got it.

As of yesterday,
Hers: 76 Ah, 96% SOH (now 6k miles)
Mine: 70 Ah, 88% SOH (now 3.5k miles)

We both do a lot of L1 (until we get our L2 installed next month). In our case, it indeed has a lot more to do with the first few months after assembly.



well the number of miles definitely indicates the car was charged up, etc. Mine on the other hand, Had 2 QCs (one I am thinking was a port test, the other at the dealership for delivery) 2 L1/L2's again likely port tests. I had 4 miles on the odometer
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Return to “Problems / Troubleshooting”