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LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4507
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:21 am

A somewhat related story a family friend had what was apparently a fairly major repair needed to an older Volt that involved some or all of the pack being replaced. They had the car for nearly three months and he was driving an ice loaner. When he finally got the car back it now shows 53 miles range. I'm skeptical and I'm sure anyone reading this will be too, but he texted me a picture and has no reason to make up a story.
Edit: Followed up with him, after living with the fix for a while it seems he's just a fairly efficient volt driver who was hampered by some bad cells. He got the car used and never experienced the degradation, it had already happened.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

User avatar
LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4507
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:53 pm

New pack installed in one day, GOM restored to 126.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

johnlocke
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:14 pm

Battery replacement scheduled for Friday, Estimated 2-4 hours to replace. I will post specs on new battery after installation.
2016 SV
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

User avatar
LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4507
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Sounds like whatever the holdup was they got past.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

dwl
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:06 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 112097
Location: New Zealand

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:30 am

If details of battery assembly date (inside battery serial number from Leaf Spy Read ECU) could be posted for these new packs it would be interesting. Voltage at full charge should confirm whether still 30kWh modules.
2014 S - 6000 km Jan 2016; 45000 km May 2017 95% SoH; 68,000 km Mar 2018 90% SoH

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12965
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:37 am

Storksb wrote:My wife's 2016 Leaf SV is showing one bar drop. Not sure when it occurred but I noticed it last week when I was testing Leafspy on it.

Leaf spy showed the following details

SOC 97.4%
kwh remaining 22.6
GIDs 291 79.7%

AHr 63.64
SOH 80.07%
Hx 74.95%


Car was leased in July 2016 and has 17600 miles


Area Northern Virginia


Looks like its been gone a while.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 5775 miles, 488 GIDs, 38 kwh 113.37 Ahr available, SOH 98.21, Hx 115.75
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

dwl
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:06 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 112097
Location: New Zealand

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:28 pm

There are indications in tests here in New Zealand that some 2016 cars are under reporting capacity as presented in SOH and lost bars. Unfortunately this low value may extend to earlier onset of LBW and VLBW so as far as the driver can tell their range is also significantly dropping and car less useful.

An overnight charge test by one owner managed to put in a reported 27.7kWh at 240V 16A. This 10 bar car is reporting 60.41AHr and 76.01% SOH. Based on Recharge Event Energy of 31.78kWh when new from the compliance doc https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=36671&flag=1 this signals around 87% SoH, a massive 11% difference.

I appreciate that when 4 bars are lost Nissan will sort it out. However, there may be many cars out there where the reported range is reduced and less useful to the owners. Has anyone done these recharge tests and/or looked in more detail at GIDs and volts during discharge to various indications such as LBW and VLBW?
2014 S - 6000 km Jan 2016; 45000 km May 2017 95% SoH; 68,000 km Mar 2018 90% SoH

johnlocke
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:15 pm

dwl wrote:There are indications in tests here in New Zealand that some 2016 cars are under reporting capacity as presented in SOH and lost bars. Unfortunately this low value may extend to earlier onset of LBW and VLBW so as far as the driver can tell their range is also significantly dropping and car less useful.

An overnight charge test by one owner managed to put in a reported 27.7kWh at 240V 16A. This 10 bar car is reporting 60.41AHr and 76.01% SOH. Based on Recharge Event Energy of 31.78kWh when new from the compliance doc https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=36671&flag=1 this signals around 87% SoH, a massive 11% difference.

I appreciate that when 4 bars are lost Nissan will sort it out. However, there may be many cars out there where the reported range is reduced and less useful to the owners. Has anyone done these recharge tests and/or looked in more detail at GIDs and volts during discharge to various indications such as LBW and VLBW?

As an owner of a 2016 4 bar loser, I can tell you that my experience is that the Leaf spy numbers matched the actual usable mileage fairly closely. For the last year I've been routinely driving the car to LBW or less fairly regularly. LBW is a fixed number of GID's (50) so I've watched the LBW creep up from 13% to 21% of power left when the nice lady announces LBW. Range has steadily dropped over time, My basic commute is 56 mi plus any errands and at this point if I have any errands, I need to charge in town before going home. My usable range (I.E. before I get to LBW) is 52 miles. Fortunately the last 3 miles to home are downhill. Also the nearest charger to my house is 15 miles away and it is only a level 2 charger. I do have the data for the various levels of charge and the voltages associated with them but I've found that the percent of charge screen is more than accurate enough for daily use.

By the way, the car is currently in the shop for battery replacement. Dropped it off Friday morning but it won't be ready until Monday.
2016 SV
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

LeftieBiker
Posts: 8781
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:31 pm

There are indications in tests here in New Zealand that some 2016 cars are under reporting capacity as presented in SOH and lost bars.


All of the available evidence shows that the batteries are losing capacity rapidly, not under-reporting it. This is an important distinction, as it means a real physical deterioration of the packs, as opposed to a software glitch in the BMS.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

dwl
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:06 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 112097
Location: New Zealand

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:16 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
There are indications in tests here in New Zealand that some 2016 cars are under reporting capacity as presented in SOH and lost bars.

All of the available evidence shows that the batteries are losing capacity rapidly, not under-reporting it. This is an important distinction, as it means a real physical deterioration of the packs, as opposed to a software glitch in the BMS.

The amount of charge accepted from flat by several cars seems to be significantly more than would be expected from the AHr/SoH and kWh reports from Leaf Spy (simply relaying car BMS). If drivers only go down to LBW or VLBW they may experience the reduced capacity as these indications seem to be triggering at higher than expected voltages on some cars.

If there is evidence that confirms the total holding capacity is reduced, not just capacity down to the warning levels, references would be appreciated. I accept there will be cars that have lost more capacity and there will be variability across the whole fleet.

If we use the value from Nissan of 31.78kWh from empty, would we expect to only be able to put in SoH * 31.78kWh at 240V and 15A ? There might be calibration errors in the EVSE kWh reporting but the example I gave was the car accepted a lot more than would be expected for the SoH (87% vs 76% reported SoH). Unfortunately only using down to LBW and VLBW can show reported loss of capacity which might not be actual.
Last edited by dwl on Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
2014 S - 6000 km Jan 2016; 45000 km May 2017 95% SoH; 68,000 km Mar 2018 90% SoH

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