SageBrush
Posts: 741
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon May 29, 2017 5:15 am

rmorgansd wrote: Is it just me or do you agree this seems bad for a brand new battery?

Seems bad
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11666
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon May 29, 2017 6:45 am

SageBrush wrote:
rmorgansd wrote: Is it just me or do you agree this seems bad for a brand new battery?

Seems bad


#1 thing to check both new and used; time on the lot. It is critical. My 2016 lives in cooler weather (except lately) but I have cooked the pack past 120º probably 30 times or so and my batt stats are as good as the day I got it. SOH can be affected by lack of use. I picked mine up at 100% SOH but Hx was 99%

I also did an experiment 3 weeks after picking mine up where I drove it barely at all. This pushed all the numbers down except kwh available (which I only read at full charge which I did only twice in 2 weeks)
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 13001 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1 QCs 112
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jbuntz
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:41 am
Delivery Date: 17 Dec 2016
Leaf Number: 303765
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue May 30, 2017 5:55 pm

Scaramanga wrote:2016 SL took delivery in December last year, 2400 miles, SOH 93%. Lame.


Don't feel too bad. 2016 SL took delivery in Dec 2016, 6100 miles SOH 85% Hx 82.7 AHr 68.38. I am not far from losing the first bar. Very Lame.
Mfg 11/15 Del 12/16 New Braunfels, TX 2016 SL 30kWh, 5175 miles. 324 GIDs, Ahr 70.75, SOH 89%, Hx; 85.31% kwh 25.1 @ 77.5/GID

rmorgansd
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 4:50 pm
Delivery Date: 14 May 2017
Leaf Number: 305326
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue May 30, 2017 11:00 pm

#1 thing to check both new and used; time on the lot.


I believe you're correct. When these cars sit on the storage lot they probably plug them into charge them up to 100% because they removed the 80% option. And there they sit week after week, month after month at 100%. Precisely what will prematurely wear out a battery and what Nissan tells you to not do.

Would be interesting to see a list of vehicles comparing manufacturing date, in-service date and battery SOH. From what I've been reading on other posts it seems that every month sitting on the lot equals 2% to 3% permanent loss of SOH.

In retrospect I would have demanded to go to the storage lot with the salesman to pick out my own car based on the manufacturing date at a minimum, preferably with Leaf spy in hand also..

There ought to be dealer charge mode that keeps the car less than 80% while it is sitting on the lot. Anyone from Nissan listening to this?
Carmel Mtn Ranch
Northern San Diego, CA

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1243
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed May 31, 2017 11:15 am

Morgansd,

Your car was probably sitting on the lot in San Diego for only 2 months since there is shipping time involved. I suspect your Leaf Spy numbers will improve with harder use and faster charging. The numbers on my 2015 drop whenever I drive it gently and charge it slowly (low rate L2 or L1). The numbers improve after highway driving with deep discharge and charging at 6 kW L2. The numbers improve more with QC.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

gshepherd
Forum Supporter
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:01 am
Delivery Date: 03 Jun 2016
Location: Seattle / Phoenix

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed May 31, 2017 4:46 pm

We have two 2016 SVs. One was manufactured October 2015, and the other was March 2016. We bought them at the end of May 2016. Both seem to be tracking about the same SOH and have around 4000 miles on the odometers, each. SOH varies from 92% to 95% depending on driving cycles, ambient temperature, etc. Neither one was at 100% charge when we test drove them - more like 30 to 40%. That was Magic Nissan (now Campbell) in Everett, WA. They may well know that you don't store LEAFs at full charge.

Both cars recently had their official battery tests done with flying colors. Interestingly, the metric for "extended storage at high state of charge" (paraphrasing from reports I have seen here) is absent on the 2016. There are only three metrics now listed:

> Frequent charging when battery state of charge is already high.
> Frequent use of Quick charging.
> Too much electric consumption while driving.

When I asked the Nissan EV Help Line about long term storage, I was told to charge the car to 100%, then unplug it. After three months, drive it around a bit, recharge it, and store again for up to three months.

This all conflicts with group-think knowledge here and even in the owner's manual that came with the car, which suggests to use the 80% long-life charge mode before storing the car, and as well not to leave the car at 100% charge for extended time. Of course, the 80% mode is gone in the USA market cars.

Perhaps Nissan is now less concerned with 100% indicated SOC than they used to be. I don't know. In any case, we stored our LEAFs at 60% SOC for the winter with acceptable results. SOH and all picked up right where it left off.
2016 LEAF SV

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6303
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed May 31, 2017 9:16 pm

Nissan can't suggest that you not charge to 100%, after removing the option to do so. Instead, they no longer admit that it's better to charge to 80%, because that's easiest and cheapest for them. If Leaf 2 doesn't have a 'hilltop reserve mode' or something to that effect, I won't order one.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

rmorgansd
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 4:50 pm
Delivery Date: 14 May 2017
Leaf Number: 305326
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed May 31, 2017 9:41 pm

From my experience with Li-Ion they don't tend to self-recover a lot. A little here and there but you can't regain capacity similar to when you cycle an old Ni-Cad or Ni-MH. In fact, one of the worst things you can do to Li-Ion is deep discharge then charge to full. You'll get the longest life by keeping it between about 40 to 80%, although we all recognize that doesn't work well in an EV where you want to go on a long trip.

Very interesting report from Battery University on the Nissan Leaf battery where they were studying early capacity loss. They disassembled some batteries and found the problem. They found what I surmised an an earlier post.....that sitting around at full charge prematurely ages the battery. A quote from the report:

An interesting discovery was made by NASA in that Li-ion dwelling above 4.10V/cell tend to decompose due to electrolyte oxidation on the cathode


Entire report can be found here: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die
Carmel Mtn Ranch
Northern San Diego, CA

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11666
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:29 am

gshepherd wrote:We have two 2016 SVs. One was manufactured October 2015, and the other was March 2016. We bought them at the end of May 2016. Both seem to be tracking about the same SOH and have around 4000 miles on the odometers, each. SOH varies from 92% to 95% depending on driving cycles, ambient temperature, etc. Neither one was at 100% charge when we test drove them - more like 30 to 40%. That was Magic Nissan (now Campbell) in Everett, WA. They may well know that you don't store LEAFs at full charge.

Both cars recently had their official battery tests done with flying colors. Interestingly, the metric for "extended storage at high state of charge" (paraphrasing from reports I have seen here) is absent on the 2016. There are only three metrics now listed:

> Frequent charging when battery state of charge is already high.
> Frequent use of Quick charging.
> Too much electric consumption while driving.

When I asked the Nissan EV Help Line about long term storage, I was told to charge the car to 100%, then unplug it. After three months, drive it around a bit, recharge it, and store again for up to three months.

This all conflicts with group-think knowledge here and even in the owner's manual that came with the car, which suggests to use the 80% long-life charge mode before storing the car, and as well not to leave the car at 100% charge for extended time. Of course, the 80% mode is gone in the USA market cars.

Perhaps Nissan is now less concerned with 100% indicated SOC than they used to be. I don't know. In any case, we stored our LEAFs at 60% SOC for the winter with acceptable results. SOH and all picked up right where it left off.


Ray, the sales manager at Magic knows how LEAFs should be handled as he was #1 in sales for a time (might still be) and plus the cars would have sat on the lot during the coldest part of the year. You cannot discount radiant heat. I have blog (should be published today or tomorrow) illustrating the "value" of full Sun even on mild days.

I drove 83 miles past a half dozen dealers to get my LEAF from him. He is the best.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 13001 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1 QCs 112
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11666
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:31 am

rmorgansd wrote:From my experience with Li-Ion they don't tend to self-recover a lot. A little here and there but you can't regain capacity similar to when you cycle an old Ni-Cad or Ni-MH. In fact, one of the worst things you can do to Li-Ion is deep discharge then charge to full. You'll get the longest life by keeping it between about 40 to 80%, although we all recognize that doesn't work well in an EV where you want to go on a long trip.

Very interesting report from Battery University on the Nissan Leaf battery where they were studying early capacity loss. They disassembled some batteries and found the problem. They found what I surmised an an earlier post.....that sitting around at full charge prematurely ages the battery. A quote from the report:

An interesting discovery was made by NASA in that Li-ion dwelling above 4.10V/cell tend to decompose due to electrolyte oxidation on the cathode


Entire report can be found here: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die


It is not recovery you are seeing with improved numbers. Its better top end pack balancing and less than stellar Nissan instrumentation. The numbers drop immediately when the QCs stop or the usage drops back down to normal
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 13001 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1 QCs 112
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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