RichCapeCod
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:38 am
Delivery Date: 12 Sep 2017
Location: AZ/Cape Cod

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:45 pm

Ebeighe, that's pretty disheartening! Would you have been better off with the Bolt and its battery temperature control system? Hindsight being 20-20 and all!

Rich

LeftieBiker
Posts: 7402
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:51 pm

I can still lease a 2017 leaf with the options I want, marked down to $30k, but I'm looking at cars built in March of 2017. I think I'd have to be crazy to choose one of those over a Bolt, even though I prefer the Leaf...
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

SageBrush
Posts: 1498
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:44 pm

RichCapeCod wrote:Ebeighe, that's pretty disheartening! Would you have been better off with the Bolt and its battery temperature control system? Hindsight being 20-20 and all!

Rich

Bolt battery degradation is unknown, and the GM warranty replacement at under 60% capacity is nothing to swoon over.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 7269
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:06 pm

https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan. ... 232844044/ has report of losing their 3rd capacity bar at 10,365 miles on a '16 SV.

The OP of that thread said they've been in NC for a month and that they and the Leaf previously resided in AZ.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

johnlocke
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:48 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
johnlocke wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
I think LeafSpy is going by voltage? In the above case, 97.6% SOC (329 GIDs) is 100% on the dash, while 27.3% SOC (74 GIDs) was 20% on the dash.

We should probably ask Turbo3 about that since he wrote Leaf Spy. I'd like to know what SOC actually measures and why it shows 97.6% at full charge?

Update: I e-mailed Turbo3. The answer is: SOC represents the actual state of charge of the battery as reported by the BMS. The Dashboard % is an adjusted value that takes into account Nissan's safety margins for charge and discharge limits. SOC is absolute capacity while Dash % is useable capacity. Turns out that this is buried in the help file for Leaf Spy. My bad.


Okay, I didn't reach LBW, but came pretty close at 53GIDs. LeafSpy reported SOC of 21.2%, while dash showed 15%.

338.84V (pack)
3.53V (cell)

So with my "healthier" battery, it seems I have more access to the lower voltages?

Seems likely. I ran the battery down to LBW this morning. 19% and 345 VDC. SOC was 24%. 49 GID's just as I was pulling in the driveway. It could just be the BMS though since the cell voltages are only 60 mv apart. You do show a slightly higher capacity at a lower voltage than I do.
2016 SV
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

johnlocke
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:28 am

ebeighe wrote:
RichCapeCod wrote:Could you expand on your observations on your Leaf's battery history a bit more for me?

Not really, I'm pretty new at this!
Lots of possibilities and theories of course:
bad batch of batteries,
chemistry need to be tweaked,
jamming 30kw worth of batteries into the same space as 24kw was a bad idea.

Best case, by the time my degradation warrantee kicks in, Nissan will have figured something out.
Worst case is i'll get multiple replacements over the 8 years; and once the car is about 9 years old it will not be very practical, though short range doesn't bother me too much as I'm used to bicycle.

Really like the car, though. our first EV.

A couple of observations come to mind here. First is that if this is occurring on '17's it's not a bad batch of batteries. The second is that your loss of capacity might be temporary. With the charging habits you describe, the pack might not be getting rebalanced properly. You might want to try charging to 100% a few times in a row and run it down to less than 40% between charges. See if that improves the capacity.
2016 SV
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12336
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:13 pm

The bad batch theory is definitely out. Next suspect, BMS? Is the steeper fast charge profile the guilty party? Would seem not since I did a LOT of that.

Cell tweak gone awry? That is plausible but seems that Nissan would have figured out a way of testing cells in a more realistic way after 7 years...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

lorenfb
Posts: 1407
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:51 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:The bad batch theory is definitely out.


You know this as fact based on your overall rigorous analysis of all potential factors and can arrive at a conclusion, right? Please!

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12336
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:10 am

lorenfb wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:The bad batch theory is definitely out.


You know this as fact based on your overall rigorous analysis of all potential factors and can arrive at a conclusion, right? Please!


My statement was based only due to the inability to prove otherwise at a level you could accept. To say anything else would resulted in another 2 week sideways tread...

Been there, done that.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GRA
Posts: 7584
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:20 pm

SageBrush wrote:
RichCapeCod wrote:Ebeighe, that's pretty disheartening! Would you have been better off with the Bolt and its battery temperature control system? Hindsight being 20-20 and all!

Rich

Bolt battery degradation is unknown, and the GM warranty replacement at under 60% capacity is nothing to swoon over.

OTOH, GM/LG Chem does have a excellent track record with the Volt and its active TMS, and a hard warranty of 60% (of 238 miles) is a hell of a lot more reliable than "4 bars" whose (unstated) value related to % of original capacity remaining can be freely changed whenever and as often as Nissan chooses to do so. As it is, we don't know how Nissan will warranty capacity on the 2018's, but based on their past behavior I'm not hopeful that they'll finally provide a hard number.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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