GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:23 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Sure, but it means that significant battery degradation may have occurred and the Volt owners are none the wiser. That will not be the case in the Bolt

Certainly, but with a warranty based on hard numbers, a liquid cooled TMS, and a much longer range to start, is there currently any other semi-affordable BEV besides Tesla that's likely to still be usable for most people's commute when the pack's eight or ten years old? 238 x .6 = 142.8, which is to say that even with a battery ready for warranty replacement, it's still going to have about as much range as the 2018 LEAF does when brand new, and there's no doubt which one's going to suffer greater degradation due to heat.

If the Bolt is bought to carry out LEAF range type tasks then you are right, but if it is bought to carry out 200 mile range type tasks then unexpected, early degradation down to 60% of new is a problem.

Which brings us back to my point: we don't know yet if the Bolt will be good for a long run of time, and the Volt does not really inform us one way or another.

IMO, anyone buying any BEV with range similar to the Bolt's for routine 200 mile tasks is asking for trouble, short but especially long-term. All BEVs have to allow a large margin for weather, terrain, HVAC use and degradation and/or restrictive SoC range to slow that down. Personally, I think any BEV's routine range for any but initial usage should be considered no more than 2/3rds of max, and in many cases less. Anyone anticipating keeping the car for a decade or more should probably consider 1/3rd as the reliable long-term range capability, until proven otherwise. As we've only had production Li-ion BEVs for 7 years now (the Roadster being more of a proof-of concept IMO), there's little basis for counting on more as yet.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

cwerdna
Gold Member
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:29 pm

Another 30 kWh 3 bar loser at https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan. ... 382243829/. Person reports they are in Riverside, CA.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

BiscuitEater
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:57 am
Delivery Date: 10 Jun 2016

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:44 pm

My 2016 SL lost 1st bar around 9,000 miles, second bar just disappeared at just over 12,600 miles. Manufactured in January, 2016, purchased in May, 2016. Lives in Georgia, so exposed to 90+ temps in summer. Never fast-charged.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12336
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:29 am

BiscuitEater wrote:My 2016 SL lost 1st bar around 9,000 miles, second bar just disappeared at just over 12,600 miles. Manufactured in January, 2016, purchased in May, 2016. Lives in Georgia, so exposed to 90+ temps in summer. Never fast-charged.


what is your average SOC you charge to every night?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Goodbar
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:39 am
Delivery Date: 31 Jul 2017
Location: Washington, D.C. Metro

Re: Battery Capacity Diminished 2016

Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:20 pm

Scaramanga wrote:So I read this post and started thinking about my car, and fussed a bit, fiddled. There's a couple things I just don't understand I guess, namely the relationship between SOH in LeafSpy, GIDS and bars. I have 12/12 bars with 1800 miles as you'd expect, but even after a full charge last night and topping it off (just to be sure) this morning, my SOH @ 92% is not as high as I thought it would be. Perhaps you can help me interpret the results.

Car was built in 2/2016, ordered by Campbell-Nelson Nissan in Edmonds, WA and sold @ Tacoma Nissan. Delivered 12/29/2016 with something like 31 miles on it. It was raining. :)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/94xkupwnybxzc ... M.png?dl=0


Same here: My SoH is 92%, HX 88 at 2.5k miles. The car was built June 2017 and I took delivery on 31 Aug 2017. The car is parked outdoors in the shade. We had a cool summer in the DC area. We don't drive much and I keep the SoC at 50-80% for most daily driving. We have 7 QCs (3 at delivery?! The dealer we purchased from doesn't even have DCFC yet.). It gets a 100% charge about once a week, though I try to not park it at above 85%.

I knew that we were going to add charging stops as the battery aged, but I was surprised at this level of degradation. I didn't check the SoH immediately. Then my phone died and I lost my early LeafSpy logs. In the warmer weather we were easily exceeding the EPA range, so range anxiety has only been on my mind recently with cooler weather.

Still trying to decide if I should be super careful to try to extend the life of the pack, or just not worry about it and hope for a warranty replacement.
2017 Leaf SV OpenEVSE 40A

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12336
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Capacity Diminished 2016

Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:53 am

Scaramanga wrote:So I read this post and started thinking about my car, and fussed a bit, fiddled. There's a couple things I just don't understand I guess, namely the relationship between SOH in LeafSpy, GIDS and bars. I have 12/12 bars with 1800 miles as you'd expect, but even after a full charge last night and topping it off (just to be sure) this morning, my SOH @ 92% is not as high as I thought it would be. Perhaps you can help me interpret the results.

Car was built in 2/2016, ordered by Campbell-Nelson Nissan in Edmonds, WA and sold @ Tacoma Nissan. Delivered 12/29/2016 with something like 31 miles on it. It was raining. :)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/94xkupwnybxzc ... M.png?dl=0


Well, I have some purely speculative thoughts about your stats if you care to hear them.
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ok, you blew your chance to blow me off so!!

Notice the difference in SOH and Hx? This generally means your stats are depressed by low usage. This is not a bad thing. A long trip will bounce BOTH your Hx and ahr up. How far up? guessing at least 4% and likely about 6%. That brings you nowhere near where you should be.

The concern I have is time on the lot and how the car was treated. It obviously wasn't shaded so we need to see what likely occurred.

**WARNING MORE UNSUBSTANTIATED SPECULATION IMMINENT!!**
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Ok so what likely happened is the dealer (mostly because that is what they were told) kept the car charged to 80% or so all the time thinking it was ok and it is... as long as the temps are low enough. How low? In full Sun, an ambient temp of 75º is too high for me especially when its just sitting there not being driven or cycled.

for more info, I have an entire blog full of speculation! Its the Degradation part 2 entry.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mn4az
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:24 pm
Location: Prior Lake, MN

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:41 pm

rcm4453 wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
jbuntz wrote: I suspect you too have one of the early batch of bad batteries. No charging plan is goin to help them. Might as well charge it whatever is best for you and wait for a replacement which is in our near future.


Sounds more like low mileage along with maintaining a high SOC in very warm weather.



Nope that's not it, I too have a 2016 Leaf SV with a bad battery that's degrading really fast, I already lost my first bar too and I live in a cool climate. My friend has a 2013 Leaf with almost 60k miles and still has all 12 bars! He lives in my area too and he doesn't baby his battery either.


Another Minnesotan here. Adding some initial stats to this thread:

'13 Leaf SV (Leased) - Leased 34 months. Drove 41K miles. All 12 bars intact when returned car. Mostly charged to 80% between midnight and 5a.

'16 Leaf SV (Purchased - Manufactured 12/15) . Typical charging pattern is to try and charge to 75-90%. Charging typically happens between midnight and 5a.

Date Ahr SOH V Hx ODO QC L1/L2 SOC
11/10/2016 74.49 93% 388.84 88.41 9769 3 350 87.70%
11/26/2017 70.85 89% 345.54 83.71 24414 7 1198 30.30%

The 11/10/2016 was actually a test for a friend. He wanted to ensure he could get a good read before testing used Leafs.
The 11/26/2017 reading is my test to make sure I could get the readings on my phone.

Pretty happy that in over a year my SOH only dropped 4%.

On Tuesday I plan on charging the car to 100% SOC and taking another set of readings which I will report back into the thread.

Goodbar
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:39 am
Delivery Date: 31 Jul 2017
Location: Washington, D.C. Metro

Re: Battery Capacity Diminished 2016

Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:06 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Well, I have some purely speculative thoughts about your stats if you care to hear them.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
ok, you blew your chance to blow me off so!!

Notice the difference in SOH and Hx? This generally means your stats are depressed by low usage. This is not a bad thing. A long trip will bounce BOTH your Hx and ahr up. How far up? guessing at least 4% and likely about 6%. That brings you nowhere near where you should be.

The concern I have is time on the lot and how the car was treated. It obviously wasn't shaded so we need to see what likely occurred.

**WARNING MORE UNSUBSTANTIATED SPECULATION IMMINENT!!**
.
.
.
.
.
Ok so what likely happened is the dealer (mostly because that is what they were told) kept the car charged to 80% or so all the time thinking it was ok and it is... as long as the temps are low enough. How low? In full Sun, an ambient temp of 75º is too high for me especially when its just sitting there not being driven or cycled.

for more info, I have an entire blog full of speculation! Its the Degradation part 2 entry.

Thanks, interesting info and theory. Went to visit my folks over the holiday, which included a QC at about the halfway point for each leg of 115 mi. The pack was fully charged at the start of each leg. The SoH has increased to 93% (+1) and Hx to 90 (+2). So, you may be right that low miles and mostly short trips is masking the "real" SoH. Hoping for the best!
2017 Leaf SV OpenEVSE 40A

mn4az
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:24 pm
Location: Prior Lake, MN

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:23 am

mn4az wrote:Another Minnesotan here. Adding some initial stats to this thread:

'13 Leaf SV (Leased) - Leased 34 months. Drove 41K miles. All 12 bars intact when returned car. Mostly charged to 80% between midnight and 5a.

'16 Leaf SV (Purchased - Manufactured 12/15) . Typical charging pattern is to try and charge to 75-90%. Charging typically happens between midnight and 5a.

Date Ahr SOH V Hx ODO QC L1/L2 SOC
11/10/2016 74.49 93% 388.84 88.41 9769 3 350 87.70%
11/26/2017 70.85 89% 345.54 83.71 24414 7 1198 30.30%

The 11/10/2016 was actually a test for a friend. He wanted to ensure he could get a good read before testing used Leafs.
The 11/26/2017 reading is my test to make sure I could get the readings on my phone.

Pretty happy that in over a year my SOH only dropped 4%.

On Tuesday I plan on charging the car to 100% SOC and taking another set of readings which I will report back into the thread.


Here's my state from today from the Lite version of LeafSpy

Ahr = 70.85
SOH = 89%
V = 395.32
Hx = 83.71%
ODO = 24414
QC = 7
L1/L2 = 1205
SOC = 97.8%

Anyone care to comment on what they see within those stats?

The only change we'll make is to charge to 100% SOC when we know we may be at risk of dropping to <25% during the days driving. In the past we focused on holding near 80% SOC and if you got home at 5% SOC so be it. One other change will be, if we get home with <25% SOC to charge it to 30% - then finish the charge off during the evening hours when rates are less (off peak charging).

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12336
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:10 am

mn4az wrote:
mn4az wrote:Another Minnesotan here. Adding some initial stats to this thread:

'13 Leaf SV (Leased) - Leased 34 months. Drove 41K miles. All 12 bars intact when returned car. Mostly charged to 80% between midnight and 5a.

'16 Leaf SV (Purchased - Manufactured 12/15) . Typical charging pattern is to try and charge to 75-90%. Charging typically happens between midnight and 5a.

Date Ahr SOH V Hx ODO QC L1/L2 SOC
11/10/2016 74.49 93% 388.84 88.41 9769 3 350 87.70%
11/26/2017 70.85 89% 345.54 83.71 24414 7 1198 30.30%

The 11/10/2016 was actually a test for a friend. He wanted to ensure he could get a good read before testing used Leafs.
The 11/26/2017 reading is my test to make sure I could get the readings on my phone.

Pretty happy that in over a year my SOH only dropped 4%.

On Tuesday I plan on charging the car to 100% SOC and taking another set of readings which I will report back into the thread.


Here's my state from today from the Lite version of LeafSpy

Ahr = 70.85
SOH = 89%
V = 395.32
Hx = 83.71%
ODO = 24414
QC = 7
L1/L2 = 1205
SOC = 97.8%

Anyone care to comment on what they see within those stats?

The only change we'll make is to charge to 100% SOC when we know we may be at risk of dropping to <25% during the days driving. In the past we focused on holding near 80% SOC and if you got home at 5% SOC so be it. One other change will be, if we get home with <25% SOC to charge it to 30% - then finish the charge off during the evening hours when rates are less (off peak charging).



there is very little risk to charging to 100% during cold weather. Degradation after A YEAR is only 6% @ 32ºF verses 2% @ 40% SOC (general Li guidelines only here) so an overnight or even a few days? Not something you should do but if it happens, its nothing to lose sleep over. We also have to keep in mind, lower Winter range so charging to a higher SOC is not only minimally bad thing to do, its simply being prepared for the worst.

Its Summer you need to worry about and yeah, it will be more than warm enough.

The reality appears to be what happened before you got the car. 10% down on day one it would seem. Look at the stats of your 2013 and I think time on the lot is your main factor.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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