edatoakrun
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:10 pm

HIOJim wrote:I was recently tempted to take advantage of the relatively low residual on my 2016 SV lease by buying it out. As part of my research for this, I spent 2 weeks 'babying' the battery - never charged more than 80%, did several cycles from 80% down to 30%, and finally charged it up to 100% so balancing could take place. The result? I lost another 2.83% SOH...

Needless to say, I've shelved any ideas of buying out the lease...

The only rational explanation for those observations is that the LBC is incapable of accurately monitoring pack condition.

You seem to have formed some other conclusion...
no condition is permanent

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HIOJim
Posts: 238
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Leaf Number: 5294
Location: King City, Oregon

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:13 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
HIOJim wrote:I was recently tempted to take advantage of the relatively low residual on my 2016 SV lease by buying it out. As part of my research for this, I spent 2 weeks 'babying' the battery - never charged more than 80%, did several cycles from 80% down to 30%, and finally charged it up to 100% so balancing could take place. The result? I lost another 2.83% SOH...

Needless to say, I've shelved any ideas of buying out the lease...

The only rational explanation for those observations is that the LBC is incapable of accurately monitoring pack condition.

You seem to have formed some other conclusion...

So your idea of 'rational' is to reject data that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions. Got it.
Hans (2017 VW e-Golf SE) Leased 01/16/18
The Blue Beauty (2016 Leaf SV) - Lease return 01/21/18
The Dark Knight (2013 Leaf S) - Lease return 03/31/16
LineJumper (2011 Nissan LEAF eTec) - Sold 10/01/11
Sparky (2012 Chevy Volt) - Purchased 09/16/11

cwerdna
Posts: 7983
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:22 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Dooglas wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:Actually, I don't recall there being a guarantee of a _new_ battery. I think the wording was that they'd restore or replace it with something that wasn't down 4-bars. Kind of like refurbished hard drives under a 5 year warranty.

If you read other posts on this site, you will see that warranty claims after loss of 4 bars are routinely resolved by replacement of the battery pack with a new one.


I was talking about the 30kwh packs here. They received new wording on the warranty. I might've missed it, but I don't recall seeing anyone post about getting a new battery yet.


And per Nissan's updated warranty ( page 8 - http://juicedcar.com/wp-content/uploads ... ooklet.pdf):
"This warranty covers any repairs needed to return
battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars
on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If
possible, the lithium-ion battery components will
be repaired or replaced, and the original lithiumion
battery will be returned to the vehicle. If necessary,
the lithium-ion battery will be replaced with
either a new or remanufactured lithium-ion battery.

Any repair or replacement made under this
Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not
return your lithium-ion battery to an “as new” condition
with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it will
provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine
bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge."

Regarding the bolded parts, I'm not sure what "new wording" you're talking about. The first warranty booklet to mention a capacity warranty was for model year '13 and it has the same language (see page 8 of https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... ooklet.pdf). Not sure why you're going to juicedcar or whatever for warranty booklets. The official place is via https://owners.nissanusa.com/nowners/na ... nualsGuide.

Correct. Nissan has always left it open-ended about new or used battery via the above verbiage. When the capacity warranty was official announced for '11 and '12 Leaf drivers, it also was left opened-ended: viewtopic.php?t=13192.

However, those who were part of the Klee class action settlement basically required those w/affected (lost 4 bars before capacity warranty expiration) '11 and '12s to receive the latest technology battery to resist heat degradation (example reference: viewtopic.php?t=18905), so they of course had no choice to provide a new one to those folks. For anyone who got replacements via the capacity warranty on '13 or newer, it became a grey area.

So far, it seems like only new batteries have gone in.

I'm pretty sure that Andy Palmer (possibly in the video at viewtopic.php?t=10257) has mentioned that it isn't their intent to just put in a 9 bar battery to replace an 8 bar one as they'd rather not have to replace more than once.

Numerous 30 kWH 4 bar losers have already gotten replacement packs.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:11 am

cwerdna wrote:Regarding the bolded parts, I'm not sure what "new wording" you're talking about. The first warranty booklet to mention a capacity warranty was for model year '13 and it has the same language (see page 8 of https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... ooklet.pdf). Not sure why you're going to juicedcar or whatever for warranty booklets. The official place is via https://owners.nissanusa.com/nowners/na ... nualsGuide.

Correct. Nissan has always left it open-ended about new or used battery via the above verbiage. When the capacity warranty was official announced for '11 and '12 Leaf drivers, it also was left opened-ended: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192.

However, those who were part of the Klee class action settlement basically required those w/affected (lost 4 bars before capacity warranty expiration) '11 and '12s to receive the latest technology battery to resist heat degradation (example reference: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=18905), so they of course had no choice to provide a new one to those folks. For anyone who got replacements via the capacity warranty on '13 or newer, it became a grey area.

So far, it seems like only new batteries have gone in.

I'm pretty sure that Andy Palmer (possibly in the video at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=10257) has mentioned that it isn't their intent to just put in a 9 bar battery to replace an 8 bar one as they'd rather not have to replace more than once.

Numerous 30 kWH 4 bar losers have already gotten replacement packs.


Thank you for that. I guess I missed it.

Although my skeptical side thinks that as more warranties get closer to expiration (and the factory not building new 24kwh packs), the refurbished batteries might become the norm. At this point, with evidence to the contrary, I'm just spewing FUD.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333
... awaiting firmware update

cwerdna
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:23 am

^^^
As I said, it's within the warranty's verbiage that Nissan has reserved the right to put in used packs. They could put in say an 11 bar pack from somewhere (who knows where?) instead of a new pack if they think it'll stay at 9 or above bars at capacity warranty expiration. It might be logistically challenging though. Where do 11 bar packs come from?

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:53 am

jbuntz wrote:
cwerdna wrote:Seems like not many updates have been happening to http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... 3.75.25.29 and I don't see any 4 bar 2016 30 kWh losers there yet. (I'd do it if I find some free time...)

Here are links to the 30 kWh 4 bar losers I'm aware of, so far. Please chime if I'm missing any 30 kWh 4+ bar losers or made mistakes. I've included their initials or MNL user name to help avoid confusion or duplication.

1) bakermel1, Phoenix, AZ, Sep 2017:
viewtopic.php?p=506782#p506782
viewtopic.php?p=506819#p506819

2) SB, Phoenix, AZ, Sep 2017: viewtopic.php?p=506613#p506613

3) samrovner, Surprise, AZ, Nov 2017: viewtopic.php?p=510024#p510024

4) LG, Chandler, AZ, Nov 2017: viewtopic.php?p=512503#p512503

5) ST, Orlando, FL, Dec 2017: viewtopic.php?p=514452#p514452

6) dfwpev, Dallas, TX, Dec 2017: viewtopic.php?p=514659#p514659

7) BB, Lake Buena Vista, FL, Dec 2017: viewtopic.php?p=514929#p514929


I have noted melody b and sflores91 have replacements

Thank you! I had to do a search to find sflores91. That makes entry 8.

8) slflores91, Las Vegas, NV, Oct/Nov 2017: viewtopic.php?p=510772#p510772

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

WetEV
Posts: 2181
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:28 am

HIOJim wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
HIOJim wrote:I was recently tempted to take advantage of the relatively low residual on my 2016 SV lease by buying it out. As part of my research for this, I spent 2 weeks 'babying' the battery - never charged more than 80%, did several cycles from 80% down to 30%, and finally charged it up to 100% so balancing could take place. The result? I lost another 2.83% SOH...

Needless to say, I've shelved any ideas of buying out the lease...

The only rational explanation for those observations is that the LBC is incapable of accurately monitoring pack condition.

You seem to have formed some other conclusion...

So your idea of 'rational' is to reject data that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions. Got it.


The battery statistics can bounce around by 3% easily. I've seen 10%. I don't think such rapid gains and losses in estimated battery capacity are real.

"Babying" the battery, in both my experience and from other reports, can lead to a lower reported capacity. "Heavy use", meaning long drives and many DCQC sessions, can lead to higher reported capacity. However, energy needed to charge the battery seems more constant, these changes don't seem to be real.

My 4 year old Leaf recently reported 100% SOH. Hx 100.59% and 65.54 Ahr. (Nov 20, 2017)

Yesterday, 91% SOH, Hx 91.74 and 59.96 AHr .
WetEV
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Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

jbuntz
Posts: 134
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Leaf Number: 303765
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:49 am

cwerdna wrote:
jbuntz wrote:
cwerdna wrote:Seems like not many updates have been happening to http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... 3.75.25.29 and I don't see any 4 bar 2016 30 kWh losers there yet. (I'd do it if I find some free time...)

Here are links to the 30 kWh 4 bar losers I'm aware of, so far. Please chime if I'm missing any 30 kWh 4+ bar losers or made mistakes. I've included their initials or MNL user name to help avoid confusion or duplication.

1) bakermel1, Phoenix, AZ, Sep 2017:
viewtopic.php?p=506782#p506782
viewtopic.php?p=506819#p506819

2) SB, Phoenix, AZ, Sep 2017: viewtopic.php?p=506613#p506613

3) samrovner, Surprise, AZ, Nov 2017: viewtopic.php?p=510024#p510024

4) LG, Chandler, AZ, Nov 2017: viewtopic.php?p=512503#p512503

5) ST, Orlando, FL, Dec 2017: viewtopic.php?p=514452#p514452

6) dfwpev, Dallas, TX, Dec 2017: viewtopic.php?p=514659#p514659

7) BB, Lake Buena Vista, FL, Dec 2017: viewtopic.php?p=514929#p514929


I have noted melody b and sflores91 have replacements

Thank you! I had to do a search to find sflores91. That makes entry 8.

8) slflores91, Las Vegas, NV, Oct/Nov 2017: viewtopic.php?p=510772#p510772


I lost the 3rd bar a couple of days ago. AHr 53.72 SOH 67.59 Hx 64.63 odo 15,329 Hopefully I'll be on the list soon :)
Mfg 11/15 Del 12/16 TX 2016 SL 30kWh,
Date Bar MI GID Ahr SOH
05/17 12 05175 324 70.75 89
08/17 11 09245 282 61.68 77
10/17 10 12000 260 57.22 71
01/18 09 15329 244 53.72 68
06/20 08 21716 230 50.41 63
06/27 11 22047 296 66.01 83 Aftr Updt

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13069
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:03 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Dooglas wrote:
slowryd76 wrote:Just lost my second bar today with less than 6k miles. I haven't even had the car for a year. At this rate, I'll probably have four bars missing by summer.

And then you will get a new battery at no cost under warranty.


Actually, I don't recall there being a guarantee of a _new_ battery. I think the wording was that they'd restore or replace it with something that wasn't down 4-bars. Kind of like refurbished hard drives under a 5 year warranty.


You are seriously going there?

You're joking, right?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 8743 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 111.39 Ahr , SOH 96.49, Hx 114.98
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SageBrush
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Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:08 am

No joke.
While Nissan to date has put in new batteries, they are not obligated to do more than get the car up to 9 bars.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
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2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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