DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12605
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:21 am

SageBrush wrote:No joke.
While Nissan to date has put in new batteries, they are not obligated to do more than get the car up to 9 bars.


FUD, nothing more here folks!
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 660 miles, 497 GIDs, 38.5 Ahr available, 100% on everything else :)
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:23 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:No joke.
While Nissan to date has put in new batteries, they are not obligated to do more than get the car up to 9 bars.


FUD, nothing more here folks!

Nonsense. Read your warranty

This is from the 2014 Owner booklet. So far as I know the wording remains the same:
This warranty covers any repairs needed to return
battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars
on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If
possible, the lithium-ion battery components will
be repaired or replaced, and the original lithiumion
battery will be returned to the vehicle. If necessary,
the lithium-ion battery will be replaced with
either a new or remanufactured lithium-ion battery.
Any repair or replacement made under this
Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not
return your lithium-ion battery to an “as new” condition
with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it will
provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine
bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge.


Since when did you become a bullshitter, Dave ?
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12605
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:43 am

SageBrush wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:No joke.
While Nissan to date has put in new batteries, they are not obligated to do more than get the car up to 9 bars.


FUD, nothing more here folks!

Nonsense. Read your warranty

This is from the 2014 Owner booklet. So far as I know the wording remains the same:
This warranty covers any repairs needed to return
battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars
on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If
possible, the lithium-ion battery components will
be repaired or replaced, and the original lithiumion
battery will be returned to the vehicle. If necessary,
the lithium-ion battery will be replaced with
either a new or remanufactured lithium-ion battery.
Any repair or replacement made under this
Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not
return your lithium-ion battery to an “as new” condition
with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it will
provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine
bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge.


Since when did you become a bullshitter, Dave ?


LOL! Since when did you decide to take over Nostradamus' job?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 660 miles, 497 GIDs, 38.5 Ahr available, 100% on everything else :)
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:21 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Dooglas wrote:And then you will get a new battery at no cost under warranty.


Actually, I don't recall there being a guarantee of a _new_ battery. I think the wording was that they'd restore or replace it with something that wasn't down 4-bars. Kind of like refurbished hard drives under a 5 year warranty.


You are seriously going there?

You're joking, right?


It seems you missed the exchange I had with cwerdna. It's a few posts earlier than yours. We've agreed that my concern is _currently_ FUD, but it doesn't rule out the possibility of Nissan hiding behind their warranty wording when the expiration date gets closer - especially with the battery factory no longer producing 30kwh cells 5 years from now.
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Sep '17 - 13k mi / 359
Oct '17 - 15.5k mi / 344
Nov '17 - 17.1k mi / 332
Jan '18 - 18.9k mi / 326
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333 ?!?!

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:41 pm

Crazy idea. Please poke holes in it where you see fit (especially if it's been suggested and debunked already).

Batteries stay healthier if:
- their DoD cycles are shallower and towards the middle of capacity.
- they're not charged to max capacity nor discharged to min capacity and held there.
- they're operating in cooler environments.

What if the 2013, 2014, and 2015 cells were actually higher capacity (increments annually) cells that were just de-rated down to 24kwh (addresses the first 2 conditions and can be done through the BMC)?

And the 2016-2017 cells are exactly the same cells, but without the de-rating? With that, the 2017 batteries should be able to maintain their SOH longer than the 2016's and that would make the 2018 40kwh cells the lastest iteration of the NMC chemistry and a potential repeat of 2011/2016 cell issues? Because the worst batch of 30kwh cells seemed to be built in 2015, and although early degradation is showing in later builds as well, they don't seem to be as bad (factoring out differences in regional weather). It would account for constant improvements to the battery chemistry (car years is just a marketing thing) that would also explain why the 30kwh cells aren't as durable as the 2013-2015 24kwh cells. It would also explain where the new replacement packs are coming from!
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Sep '17 - 13k mi / 359
Oct '17 - 15.5k mi / 344
Nov '17 - 17.1k mi / 332
Jan '18 - 18.9k mi / 326
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333 ?!?!

User avatar
drees
Moderator
Posts: 6214
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:49 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:What if the 2013, 2014, and 2015 cells were actually higher capacity (increments annually) cells that were just de-rated down to 24kwh

The readily available cell voltage data debunks this theory.
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:10 am

drees wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:What if the 2013, 2014, and 2015 cells were actually higher capacity (increments annually) cells that were just de-rated down to 24kwh

The readily available cell voltage data debunks this theory.


:(
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Sep '17 - 13k mi / 359
Oct '17 - 15.5k mi / 344
Nov '17 - 17.1k mi / 332
Jan '18 - 18.9k mi / 326
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333 ?!?!

Dooglas
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:08 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 314779
Location: Oregon City, OR

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:04 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:Although my skeptical side thinks that as more warranties get closer to expiration (and the factory not building new 24kwh packs), the refurbished batteries might become the norm. At this point, with evidence to the contrary, I'm just spewing FUD.

A number of owners have posted here about having 24 kWh batteries replaced under warranty during 2017. The build date of the replacement battery was 2017.
2013 Leaf SV - lease ended, 2016 Leaf S30

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12605
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:29 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:Crazy idea. Please poke holes in it where you see fit (especially if it's been suggested and debunked already).

Batteries stay healthier if:
- their DoD cycles are shallower and towards the middle of capacity.
- they're not charged to max capacity nor discharged to min capacity and held there.
- they're operating in cooler environments.

What if the 2013, 2014, and 2015 cells were actually higher capacity (increments annually) cells that were just de-rated down to 24kwh (addresses the first 2 conditions and can be done through the BMC)?

And the 2016-2017 cells are exactly the same cells, but without the de-rating? With that, the 2017 batteries should be able to maintain their SOH longer than the 2016's and that would make the 2018 40kwh cells the lastest iteration of the NMC chemistry and a potential repeat of 2011/2016 cell issues? Because the worst batch of 30kwh cells seemed to be built in 2015, and although early degradation is showing in later builds as well, they don't seem to be as bad (factoring out differences in regional weather). It would account for constant improvements to the battery chemistry (car years is just a marketing thing) that would also explain why the 30kwh cells aren't as durable as the 2013-2015 24kwh cells. It would also explain where the new replacement packs are coming from!


Not crazy at all and I was in the middle of testing my car to prove. That test has unfortunately come to an end.


The issue with the "9 bar" statement is COMPLETELY misguided. Realize capacity loss can happen with a single defective cell. In this case, do you expect to get a brand new pack? or simply fix the cell and end up with the capacity you had (of at least 9 bars) before the cell failed?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 660 miles, 497 GIDs, 38.5 Ahr available, 100% on everything else :)
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12605
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:31 am

Dooglas wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:Although my skeptical side thinks that as more warranties get closer to expiration (and the factory not building new 24kwh packs), the refurbished batteries might become the norm. At this point, with evidence to the contrary, I'm just spewing FUD.

A number of owners have posted here about having 24 kWh batteries replaced under warranty during 2017. The build date of the replacement battery was 2017.


Agreed. Cells are batch processed and its not much of a change to manufacture a batch of cells for 24 kwh replacement packs. Its not like retooling is required because it is not.

I think this is the reason Nissan's standard response is "4-6 weeks" for replacement. What they are doing is giving you a better idea of just how long it takes to get these cells ready. They build small batches but in the event, they run short, the disclaimer. As we all know; SEVERAL have not waited 4-6 weeks. Many have waited less than "4-6 days"
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 660 miles, 497 GIDs, 38.5 Ahr available, 100% on everything else :)
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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