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LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4455
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat May 12, 2018 1:48 am

dwl wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:Pack replacement #1 of 4 is in process. Dealer confirmed capacity loss and new pack has been ordered. Supposed to be here in a week.

Six weeks later no new battery and nobody can tell us when it will arrive.
(New pack ordered around March 21st)

Now seven weeks and any sign of new battery ?

Was busy with other things and didn't have a chance to hound them this week, but wasn't notified it was in or anything. Fortunately range for work and back is still sufficient.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

cwerdna
Posts: 7762
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat May 12, 2018 1:59 am

We have a report of 1 bar loser on a 30 kWh car in Santa Cruz, CA at https://www.facebook.com/groups/BayLeaf ... 023242718/, built 1/2016. Pic shows 21,699 miles and he said it was 2 days before the 2 year anniversary.

Santa Cruz doesn't get very hot. This is pretty terrible compared to my 5/2013 built '13 (my 1st bar lost on 11/21/17 at viewtopic.php?p=511915#p511915). I live and work in much hotter parts of the Bay Area than Santa Cruz.

There is a reply mentioning that some folks in the Bay Area lost their 1st bar a year ago and some their 2nd bar already.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

dwl
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:06 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 112097
Location: New Zealand

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat May 12, 2018 2:19 am

edatoakrun wrote:What is your source for, and definition of, "charging efficiency of nominally 88% at 230V and 16A."?

The 88% value a guess based on several documents. The one at https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... 12Leaf.pdf for the older Leaf is one example. Hopefully we may get a better idea of that efficiency when charge via EVSE and discharge cycles are completed with DC current monitoring on the pack. It may not be very accurate but we are now getting a lot more cars with one bar lost which is nominally 20% less capacity so should be obvious if in correct ball park.
2014 S - 6000 km Jan 2016; 45000 km May 2017 95% SoH; 68,000 km Mar 2018 90% SoH

SageBrush
Posts: 2184
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat May 12, 2018 3:34 am

dwl wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:What is your source for, and definition of, "charging efficiency of nominally 88% at 230V and 16A."?

The 88% value a guess based on several documents. The one at https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... 12Leaf.pdf for the older Leaf is one example. Hopefully we may get a better idea of that efficiency when charge via EVSE and discharge cycles are completed with DC current monitoring on the pack. It may not be very accurate but we are now getting a lot more cars with one bar lost which is nominally 20% less capacity so should be obvious if in correct ball park.

It's a good ballpark, easy to confirm with EPA CSI documents.

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_ ... 085&flag=1
Bottom of the UDDS results page
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

dwl
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:06 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 112097
Location: New Zealand

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun May 13, 2018 12:54 am

SageBrush wrote:It's a good ballpark, easy to confirm with EPA CSI documents.

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_ ... 085&flag=1
Bottom of the UDDS results page

This is an excellent link thanks. If I go to a 30kWh version at https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_ ... 671&flag=1 I see Recharge Event Voltage = 240 and Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) = 31.7807. I assume this means a new 30kWh Leaf when charged to 100% from a low SoC (turtle?) should take about 31.8 kWh. At lower SoH the charge time should reduce so overheads should be a similar ratio so this could be a viable method to check SoH.

Does anyone know the details of these tests and what is the starting SoC?
2014 S - 6000 km Jan 2016; 45000 km May 2017 95% SoH; 68,000 km Mar 2018 90% SoH

SageBrush
Posts: 2184
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun May 13, 2018 6:33 am

dwl wrote:
SageBrush wrote:It's a good ballpark, easy to confirm with EPA CSI documents.

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_ ... 085&flag=1
Bottom of the UDDS results page

I assume this means a new 30kWh Leaf when charged to 100% from a low SoC (turtle?) should take about 31.8 kWh.

From empty. The calculated usable is then 27.6 kWh in that new LEAF

Circling back to charging efficiency:
27.6 of 31.8 kWh reach the battery, so
276/318 = 86.8%
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

edatoakrun
Posts: 5064
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun May 13, 2018 7:42 am

dwl wrote:...If I go to a 30kWh version at https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_ ... 671&flag=1 I see Recharge Event Voltage = 240 and Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) = 31.7807. I assume this means a new 30kWh Leaf when charged to 100% from a low SoC (turtle?) should take about 31.8 kWh. At lower SoH the charge time should reduce so overheads should be a similar ratio so this could be a viable method to check SoH.

Does anyone know the details of these tests and what is the starting SoC?

These test results are submitted by manufacturers, and there seems to be no extrinsic information on test procedures available.

As I posted previously re the "30 kWh" LEAF epa test results above, with my best guess on available capacity and efficiency:

edatoakrun wrote:...Here is my post from several months ago, to which none of the "30 kWh" pack owners ever replied:

="edatoakrun"

If you want to find actual capacity loss on a "30 kWh" LEAF, I'd suggest you test your pack the same way you would for a "24 kWh" pack, albeit with far fewer of the test parameters and variables known, and with only a single (?) "30 kWh" pack having been tested by a high-integrity source.

The EPA test of a 2016 "30 kWh" LEAF (strangely...) shows the same 31.7807 kWh from a 240 volt EVSE required to recharge after both the city (UDDS) and highway cycle tests.

This could correspond to a ~30 kWh (total) pack, that is ~90% accessible, and recharges at ~85% average efficiency over the entire accessible capacity.


Monitor the kWh your pack accepts (and/or the charge time, and voltage) after similar depletion from fully-charged (240 V) pack, after a similar single-event full (to stop) discharge.

Results should be expected to vary a great deal with pack and ambient temperatures, which I don't know for the EPA tests...

In "24 kWh" LEAF pack tests, there is significant variation in charge accepted even for the same pack, in identical tests.

This is evidently due to the LBCs inaccuracy in determining the upper and lower charge limits.

You should expect the same in the larger packs, so do not expect a single test to be determinative...

dwl wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:What is your source for, and definition of, "charging efficiency of nominally 88% at 230V and 16A."?

The 88% value a guess based on several documents. The one at https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... 12Leaf.pdf for the older Leaf is one example...

Have you looked at all the AVTA documentation on 2011-15 LEAFs?

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-make/nissan

I think you may agree that total (grid-to-road) efficiency for "24 kWh" LEAFs is usually significantly lower than 88%.

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... 12Leaf.pdf

I estimate that my 2011 pack has an efficiency range of about 88% (40 C pack temperature, recharging to "80%") to about 82% (recharging to "100%", at ~0 C), which corresponds pretty well to the multiple AVTA test results, which, IMO, seem to me to generally show about 83% to 85% efficiency for a "100%" recharge at moderate temperatures.

Efficiency certainly should also be expected to decline as a pack degrades, but that does not seem to be significant factor for my pack... yet

One major issue is that "efficiency" is really a misnomer when discussing the ratio of kWh accepted/expended in a BEV like the LEAF with passive thermal management, not utilizing an auxiliary battery pack heating system.

A cold battery has lower "efficiency", because energy is utilized to warm the pack to a (desirable) higher operating temperature range.

A warmer pack has much higher "efficiency", as well as higher capacity.
Last edited by edatoakrun on Sun May 13, 2018 7:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
no condition is permanent

chirpyboy
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:30 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2017

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun May 13, 2018 7:49 am

One more datapoint for the mix:

2017 lost first bar at 11,200 miles and 84% SOH, Hx=81%. I'm certainly disappointed and expecting to need a replacement within the 8-yr warranty period.

11/16 build date. I bought it fresh off the truck; it was not sitting in the dealer lot.

Location: Texas, so, it's hot, but I park and charge in a covered parking garage. Mostly 6kW level 2 charging. One or two QCs a month.

I always drive in B non-eco.

My recent annual battery check (that useless thing from the dealer) showed 5-stars on every category.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 8602
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun May 13, 2018 11:58 am

I always drive in B non-eco.


I doubt it's a major issue, but using B mode in hot weather may be making the degradation a little bit worse.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

marcelg
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:04 am
Delivery Date: 06 Sep 2017
Leaf Number: 307144
Location: Ottawa, ON
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun May 13, 2018 12:16 pm

chirpyboy wrote:One more datapoint for the mix:

2017 lost first bar at 11,200 miles and 84% SOH, Hx=81%. I'm certainly disappointed and expecting to need a replacement within the 8-yr warranty period.

11/16 build date. I bought it fresh off the truck; it was not sitting in the dealer lot.

Location: Texas, so, it's hot, but I park and charge in a covered parking garage. Mostly 6kW level 2 charging. One or two QCs a month.

I always drive in B non-eco.

My recent annual battery check (that useless thing from the dealer) showed 5-stars on every category.



How often do you charge above 80%? theres been speculation that the 30 kwh version degrades because its charged over 80% more often, as well as heat.

i got leafspy at 2500km, and it showed 86% SOH, but it was cold in december. recently ran it to turtle, then charged to 100%. soh is now 88%, at 5500km. i've tried to avoid going over 80%, but mine seems to be degraded right from the get go.

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