SageBrush
Posts: 2601
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:32 am

dwl wrote:To clarify, the data above is pre update.

Ahh. Any chance of getting the same data on a post update car ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

dwl
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:06 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 112097
Location: New Zealand

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:37 pm

SageBrush wrote:
dwl wrote:To clarify, the data above is pre update.
Ahh. Any chance of getting the same data on a post update car ?

The data for voltage and measured capacity (down to cutoff just above turtle) doesn’t change in an updated car but the GIDs points do shift. I was shown a graph of GIDs vs. measured kWh which for pre-update are offset (GIDs about 2kWh lower than measured over much of the discharge curve) and on an updated car match much more closely.

From the voltage data I posted, I also have a data point which is measured capacity of 2kWh (from test cutoff) showing pack voltage 328.9V (average cell volts 3.42V) and this was on the knee (not down the steeper part). I understand VLBW with update would now come on around this voltage for this car SOH but I don’t have the results post-update. LBW should now come on at approximately the point where VLBW was previously.

It would be interesting to get observations from other cars as the results will vary depending on SOH. More detailed data possibly belongs in the thread about 2016 30kWh Battery Data at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=20924&start=580.

We have these insights in New Zealand courtesy of http://evsenhanced.com as Nissan does not support these cars here (they sold the 2011/2012 and now considering bringing in the 2018 next year). In the US with your warranties I expect there is less need for this testing but it is a pity that the earlier work such as done by Idaho National Labs hasn’t continued to build confidence that the manufacturers are being transparent. We are really grateful for tools like Leaf Spy which has enabled the citizen science approach of https://flipthefleet.org/.
2014 S - 6000 km Jan 2016; 45000 km May 2017 95% SoH; 68,000 km Mar 2018 90% SoH

johnlocke
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:12 pm

SageBrush wrote:
johnlocke wrote:OK, I ran my battery down to 13 GID's today. I couldn't get the value for VLB because I was going up a long grade and couldn't pull over to record it but I do have a value for VLBW (25 GIDS, 6%) 334 VDC (3.48 V/cell). 9% (32 GID's) was 336 VDC (3.50 V/cell) and 3%(13 GID's) was 330 VDC (3.44 V/cell). I didn't have any desire to find turtle so that's not included. Referring back to my notes for the original battery when new, I can see that the new battery is holding a higher voltage at low charge ( old battery was 317VDC at 3%) but that;s the only difference I see.
I'm most interested in the lowest cell pair voltage, since that is the trigger for the VLB warning.

Thanks for sharing.

All the cells were within 20 mv of each other. I have always found the VLBW and LBW warnings were always at 25 and 50 GID's no matter how much the battery capacity changed. Toward the end of the first battery's life LBW would sound off at 21% left.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

mn4az
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:24 pm
Location: Prior Lake, MN

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:24 am

SageBrush wrote:
dwl wrote:To clarify, the data above is pre update.

Ahh. Any chance of getting the same data on a post update car ?


I've been posting just about every day the car needs a full charge. Today is one of those days. :-)

Rather than having folks deal with the crappy formatting I'm keeping my numbers at the below URL. As of now it seems that I am degrading at a faster clip than before the software upgrade. :-( However, that could mean lots of things. By this time next year things could be much different (hopefully) or not (kinda expecting it).

https://1drv.ms/x/s!AmMHBcyzLWAx7IAfhTHs_dPgwtVW6w

No matter what, it's serving it's 9+ year commuter car purpose for us: 3 years of us driving it before the kids drive it 6+ years around town for high school and extracurricular activities.

johnlocke
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:10 pm

Update on battery. After two months of hot weather there doesn't appear to be any deterioration. Stats are 363 GID's 82.04 AH SOH 103.22% Hx 96.15% 0 DCFC 55 L2. 2696 mi on new battery 47725 mi on the car. Hx has dropped by 1% but that's the only change I see. I still think I need to see a year's worth of data before I have any real confidence in the new battery and the software change.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

prinzler
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:40 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Aug 2018

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:37 pm

I recently ran my 2016 Leaf (30KWH battery) to VLBW, and then got down to 6%, as indicated on the car’s display) and immediately charged it up at a Chargepoint station. After charging, the car’s display said I charged it to 100%.

The Chargepoint charger indicated that it had output 24.839 KWH for that session (from 6% to 100%). Merely taking those percentages. you’d expect that you could add 94% of the car’s total 30KWH by charging from 6% to 100%. But I only added in 82.3 % (24.839 / 30).

Would that be expected for a Feb. 2016 Leaf, or is it excessive?

(To confuse the issue a little more, the car currently shows 10 white and 2 red capacity squares (at the far right of the dash display), but when the battery was checked at 2 years last Feb., the readout from the dealer showed 11 bars for the “Current battery status” (capacity).

WetEV
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:45 pm

prinzler wrote:I recently ran my 2016 Leaf (30KWH battery) to VLBW, and then got down to 6%, as indicated on the car’s display) and immediately charged it up at a Chargepoint station. After charging, the car’s display said I charged it to 100%.

The Chargepoint charger indicated that it had output 24.839 KWH for that session (from 6% to 100%). Merely taking those percentages. you’d expect that you could add 94% of the car’s total 30KWH by charging from 6% to 100%. But I only added in 82.3 % (24.839 / 30).

Would that be expected for a Feb. 2016 Leaf, or is it excessive?

(To confuse the issue a little more, the car currently shows 10 white and 2 red capacity squares (at the far right of the dash display), but when the battery was checked at 2 years last Feb., the readout from the dealer showed 11 bars for the “Current battery status” (capacity).


Where are you at?

Do you have the latest BMS firmware (updated in the last couple of months)?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

prinzler
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:40 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Aug 2018

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:49 pm

WetEV wrote:
Where are you at?

Do you have the latest BMS firmware (updated in the last couple of months)?

I am in California (central coast)

The car had the battery controller reprogrammed in June [edit: 2018], if that's what you mean by BMS firmware.

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JPWhite
Gold Member
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:02 pm

prinzler wrote:
The Chargepoint charger indicated that it had output 24.839 KWH for that session (from 6% to 100%). Merely taking those percentages. you’d expect that you could add 94% of the car’s total 30KWH by charging from 6% to 100%. But I only added in 82.3 % (24.839 / 30).

Would that be expected for a Feb. 2016 Leaf, or is it excessive?


You do not get access to the full 30kWh in the LEAF, a certain percentage will be reserved at both the top end and bottom end of the battery, For example with the 2011 LEAF 21.3kWh of the 24kWh battery was available after accounting for reserve. This reserve is necessary to prevent premature wear of the battery at full or empty. I'm not sure what the usable capacity is for the 30kWH LEAF but I'd be surprised if it was anymore than 27kWH probably a little less.
--
JP White
http://jpwhitenissanleaf.com
Blue SL-e, Res 4/22/10, Ord 3/29/11, Del 7/30/11
110,000 Miles.
Lost 5 Capacity bars
7/18/13 (29,206), 8/25/14 (51,728), 7/12/15 (71.108), 5/12/16 (88,362), 10/17/16 (96,532)
New Battery 12/3/16 (98,956)

prinzler
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:40 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Aug 2018

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:07 pm

JPWhite wrote:
You do not get access to the full 30kWh in the LEAF, a certain percentage will be reserved at both the top end and bottom end of the battery, For example with the 2011 LEAF 21.3kWh of the 24kWh battery was available after accounting for reserve. This reserve is necessary to prevent premature wear of the battery at full or empty. I'm not sure what the usable capacity is for the 30kWH LEAF but I'd be surprised if it was anymore than 27kWH probably a little less.

So let's say, for the sake of discussion, that the 30KWH battery has 27 KHW of usable capacity. When the indicator on the dash display reads 100%, is that 100% of 27KWH?

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