VAB5
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:16 am
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2017
Leaf Number: 301651

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:56 pm

Maybe you guys can tell me what this means. I have a 2016 Leaf (built 10/2015, first registered July 2016), which I purchased from Arizona (!) in June 2017 with just under 5,000 miles. It lost its first bar after I gave it its first charge. I checked LeafSpy and it was at 80%. Dealer did compensate me for the loss of the first bar, which was nice.

3 months later, I'm now at 72%, and I'm scheduled to take it into the dealer next week to give it a proper scan. Curious as to why I haven't lost a second bar yet, as by what I can tell, I should be close to losing a third bar.

Here's where it is today:

Image

And here's where it was shortly after I got it in early June:

Image

Thoughts?

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RegGuheert
Posts: 5544
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:09 pm

VAB5 wrote:Thoughts?
Does your LEAF have a 30 kWh battery? I assume so since you are posting in this thread (and since it lost a bar already with those numbers.

It seems clear to me that your BMS was reset prior to the vehicle being sold to you. Still, it's pretty amazing how much capacity has been lost already. It seems the NMC chemistry loses capacity even faster than the older LEAF battery chemistry.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

VAB5
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:16 am
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2017
Leaf Number: 301651

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:21 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
VAB5 wrote:Thoughts?
Does your LEAF have a 30 kWh battery? I assume so since you are posting in this thread (and since it lost a bar already with those numbers.

It seems clear to me that your BMS was reset prior to the vehicle being sold to you. Still, it's pretty amazing how much capacity has been lost already. It seems the NMC chemistry loses capacity even faster than the older LEAF battery chemistry.


Yes--30 kWh. So, is BMS reset as a matter of routine, or would someone reset it to hide something? In other words, why would a BMS be reset? And who can reset it?

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RegGuheert
Posts: 5544
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:48 pm

VAB5 wrote:So, is BMS reset as a matter of routine, or would someone reset it to hide something? In other words, why would a BMS be reset? And who can reset it?
It is not routine. There are some service procedures which call for a reset, such as replacing the battery pack or the BMS. The command is called "GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS DATA CLEAR" and can be done by Nissan dealers.

On June 19, 2012, I predicted that the BMS reset would be used to hide capacity loss from unsuspecting buyers:
RegGuheert on June 19, 2012 wrote:One more thought on this: I'm wondering if the LI-ION GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS DATA CLEAR command discussed on page EVC-107 of the Nissan LEAF service manual resets lost capacity bars if it is executed on a car with an older battery.

If so, then I suspect some unscrupulous sellers will reset that just as some do with odometers today. The manual says it is only to be executed in the case of the installation of a new battery or a new battery controller, but that won't stop some people.
My guess is that your dealer reset the BMS to make your LEAF appear to have more capacity than it really did at the time of your purchase.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

VAB5
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:16 am
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2017
Leaf Number: 301651

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:54 pm

RegGuheert wrote:My guess is that your dealer reset the BMS to make your LEAF appear to have more capacity than it really did at the time of your purchase.


Is there any way to prove that?

Would LeafSpy provide evidence?

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RegGuheert
Posts: 5544
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:58 pm

VAB5 wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:My guess is that your dealer reset the BMS to make your LEAF appear to have more capacity than it really did at the time of your purchase.
Is there any way to prove that?

Would LeafSpy provide evidence?
I don't know the answer to your questions, but I suspect the car keeps a record of when the BMS was last reset. If so, you might be able to show that it was done while in the possession of the dealership.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

SageBrush
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:10 pm

According to OP, LeafSpy reported 80% capacity after the first charge from purchase. That is not reset behavior.
This is just a battery losing capacity, fast.

Warranty will kick in when the 9th bar is lost. No one outside Nissan knows what SoC that will be. My guess (I emphasize GUESS) is around 42 Ahr, the same as the 24 kWh battery models.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:04 pm

I've been seeing evidence on a few threads showing that the first bar loss happens around the 80% mark on the 30kwh leafs versus 85% on the 24kwh leafs. So I don't think it was a BMS reset either.
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs]

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:04 pm

... Deleted because DUP.
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs]

berclese
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:44 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Aug 2016
Leaf Number: 310756

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:38 pm

berclese wrote:
samrovner wrote:
berclese wrote:
UPDATE: Of course, Nissan says my 66% SOH battery is doing great at one year of service. The battery information sheet is worthless as it just rates your use of charging and driving usage, presumably from the Nissan Connect data. It also shows the bars left in a graph, nothing we don't already know. No data on SOH, kWh or projected range.

The service rep said 20-25% capacity loss in the first year is average. I hope the loss is going to slow this year. This car is going to become worthless to me if the range gets much worse.


You and I are in the same boat, and I was hoping you were going to have better news today. I'm in Phoenix too, and this is my second LEAF. My 2013 SV didn't degrade like this at all. I agree with you about the car becoming worthless, and can't imagine what the range will be like when I finally lose my 4th bar. I read an article last night about contacting Nissan's Customer Support to start documenting this early, just to avoid headaches when it finally does qualify for replacement. I plan on calling them later today or tomorrow. Have you reached out to them yet?


I am under the suspicion that Nissan may have moved the SOH/capacity bar relationship for the 30 kWh battery. My car will likely drop it's second bar very soon. Have you taken your car in for the yearly battery check? That may help you in the long run (no pun intended). I have not contacted customer service. Please let us know how that goes.


UPDATE: I lost the second bar today. 237 GIDs AHr= 51.85 SOH= 65% HX= 65.88% 5899 miles.
2016 SV - 30kWh battery

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