edatoakrun
Posts: 4742
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:23 am

If you want to find actual capacity loss on a "30 kWh" LEAF, I'd suggest you test your pack the same way you would for a "24 kWh" pack, albeit with far fewer of the test parameters and variables known, and with only a single (?) "30 kWh" pack having been tested by a high-integrity source.

The EPA test of a 2016 "30 kWh" LEAF (strangely...) shows the same 31.7807 kWh from a 240 volt EVSE required to recharge after both the city (UDDS) and highway cycle tests.

This could correspond to a ~30 kWh (total) pack, that is ~90% accessible, and recharges at ~85% average efficiency over the entire accessible capacity.

Monitor the kWh your pack accepts (and/or the charge time, and voltage) after similar depletion from fully-charged (240 V) pack, after a similar single-event full (to stop) discharge.

Results should be expected to vary a great deal with pack and ambient temperatures, which I don't know for the EPA tests (?)

I'd guess the EPA might test near the 70F to 80F range?

Anyone know?

In "24 kWh" LEAF pack tests, there is significant variation in charge accepted even for the same pack, in identical tests.

This is evidently due to the LBCs inaccuracy in determining the upper and lower charge limits.

You should expect the same in the larger packs, so do not expect a single test to be determinative.

Remember, you are not able to test total pack capacity, only the capacity your LEAF's LBC allowed you to access during the given charge/discharge cycle.

Repeat, to get a larger sample, and also to determine the accuracy or (inaccuracy) of your LBC in determining its upper and lower pack limits.



Certification Summary Information Report

Model Year 2016...

Test Date 03/11/2015

Test Procedure 81 - Charge Depleting UDDS

Recharge Event Voltage 240...

Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 31.7807...

Total distance (mile):166.410...

Test Procedure 84 - Charge Depleting Highway...

Recharge Event Voltage 240...

Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 31.7807...

Charge Depleting Range (Actual miles) 136.408...

Charge Time[sec]:20733...


https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_ ... 671&flag=1

2017 MY certification appears to use the same test results:

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_ ... 806&flag=1
no condition is permanent

lorenfb
Posts: 1402
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:36 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
How do you explain my 24kWh Leaf at 54k and 12 bars?


You seem to be confusing miles on the odometer with amp-hours.


Yes a typo, that what happens when half asleep after a long work day. Thanks. Re-read.

lorenfb
Posts: 1402
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:30 am

edatoakrun wrote:If you want to find actual capacity loss on a "30 kWh" LEAF, I'd suggest you test your pack the same way you would for a "24 kWh" pack, albeit with far fewer of the test parameters and variables known, and with only a single (?) "30 kWh" pack having been tested by a high-integrity source.

The EPA test of a 2016 "30 kWh" LEAF (strangely...) shows the same 31.7807 kWh from a 240 volt EVSE required to recharge after both the city (UDDS) and highway cycle tests.

This could correspond to a ~30 kWh (total) pack, that is ~90% accessible, and recharges at ~85% average efficiency over the entire accessible capacity.

Monitor the kWh your pack accepts (and/or the charge time, and voltage) after similar depletion from fully-charged (240 V) pack, after a similar single-event full (to stop) discharge.

Results should be expected to vary a great deal with pack and ambient temperatures, which I don't know for the EPA tests (?)

I'd guess the EPA might test near the 70F to 80F range?

Anyone know?

In "24 kWh" LEAF pack tests, there is significant variation in charge accepted even for the same pack, in identical tests.

This is evidently due to the LBCs inaccuracy in determining the upper and lower charge limits.

You should expect the same in the larger packs, so do not expect a single test to be determinative.

Remember, you are not able to test total pack capacity, only the capacity your LEAF's LBC allowed you to access during the given charge/discharge cycle.

Repeat, to get a larger sample, and also to determine the accuracy or (inaccuracy) of your LBC in determining its upper and lower pack limits.



Certification Summary Information Report

Model Year 2016...

Test Date 03/11/2015

Test Procedure 81 - Charge Depleting UDDS

Recharge Event Voltage 240...

Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 31.7807...

Total distance (mile):166.410...

Test Procedure 84 - Charge Depleting Highway...

Recharge Event Voltage 240...

Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 31.7807...

Charge Depleting Range (Actual miles) 136.408...

Charge Time[sec]:20733...


https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_ ... 671&flag=1

2017 MY certification appears to use the same test results:

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_ ... 806&flag=1


Or simply monitor the Ahrs delta over time, i.e. it's not that difficult!

edatoakrun
Posts: 4742
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:14 pm

lorenfb wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:If you want to find actual capacity loss on a "30 kWh" LEAF, I'd suggest you test your pack the same way you would for a "24 kWh" pack...

Or simply monitor the Ahrs delta over time, i.e. it's not that difficult!

Prior posts on this thread strongly suggest the futility of relying on the LBC reports for accurate data on pack capacity for "30 kWh" packs, just as six years of threads on LBC reports on "24 kWh" pack capacity loss have done for earlier LEAF packs.

The simple-minded approach to answering a question is not necessarily the best...
no condition is permanent

joeriv
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: Fairfield County CT

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:35 pm

OK - Officially dense on this - are you telling us that LeafSpy data is misleading?
2017 Leaf S with QC, JUN mfg date

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:49 pm

lorenfb wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
How did you determine this? Guessing not allowed. Source please!

Is ~ 52 Ahrs for loss of second bar in a 24 kWh model controversial ?


How do you explain my 24kWh Leaf at 54k, 12 bars, 51 Ahrs? Maybe an outlier, or your statement is erroneous.
Surely you've gathered sufficient data to support that statement, right? If so, please provide it. That data
should provide; temp range exposed to, number of charges, extent of battery discharges between charges,
age, miles driven, times left at full charge, average battery temp while driving. Surely you have access to
such comprehensive data, given that you rarely if ever make erroneous absolute statements without prior
exhaustive research. Based on your longitudinal analysis of that data, e.g. using linear regression, the correlation
coefficient between 51 Ahrs and the loss of the "second bar" approaches .99, right?

Bottom line: Surely we don't want to bias new Leaf owners with more hyperbole as has been posted recently.


That is pretty odd. Your 51 Ahr is ~78% of 65 Ahr (the new Ahr rating of a 24kwh battery). You should already be at 1 bar, if not 2 bars lost. You can compare your Ahr rating against the database of other leaf owners and what bars lost they are: http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... acity_Loss

Note there are a few typo's in the listings, so if you correct for a single-digit typo, you'll find it's pretty consistent that 77-78% SOH is where the 2nd bar is lost.

So I don't see how you could possibly still have 12 bars of battery life remaining?
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs
26 Oct 2017 - 15.5k miles & 344 GIDs
26 Nov 2017 - 17.1k miles & 332 GIDs]

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:52 pm

@ lorenfb, If you don't mind, could you take a pic of your dash console and a screenshot of your leafspy screen showing SOH?
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs
26 Oct 2017 - 15.5k miles & 344 GIDs
26 Nov 2017 - 17.1k miles & 332 GIDs]

webeleafowners
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:24 pm

So for those of us that don't have the leaf spy facility but do have a juice box and it's monitoring software. Let's say a leaf at 10 percent (never had it lower) and charge all the way to full. What should I expect to see for total capacity?

Thanks in advance.

John.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

lorenfb
Posts: 1402
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:52 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:So I don't see how you could possibly still have 12 bars of battery life remaining?


You question my data? Check with Dave (DaveinOlyWA - has one of the highest post counts).
His '13 had about the same mileage with even a higher Ahr reading when it was returned
AND 12 bars.

You been reading too many of the negative Leaf posts! Try avoid reading many of @SageBrush's posts.
Remember, battery degradation is a function of many variables, e.g. how the battery is used/charged.

lorenfb
Posts: 1402
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:13 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:@ lorenfb, If you don't mind, could you take a pic of your dash console and a screenshot of your leafspy screen showing SOH?


My Leaf's SOH is 75%. You know the correlation factor between Ahrs & SOH, right?

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