DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11587
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Water Pump DOA

Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:37 am

The other day I realized my water pump was dysfunctional, not playing well with others or just simply useless. I should have a new one when my schedule permits me to get it installed but my tech mentioned that I was not the first so thinking maybe its something we should be aware of... As always, details in blog.


http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/04 ... -leaf.html
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 11311 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rt84vhf
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:33 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Oct 2016
Leaf Number: 303893
Location: OH

Re: Water Pump DOA

Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:06 pm

Read your blog post. Just wanted to ask about the noise and the temperature of the inverter lid. Are you saying that your inverter lid, once cooled completely after a drive, will stay that way while charging? I just checked mine after a 100 mile day, and it's fairly warm while charging on L1. My wife's is completely cold, but it's been sitting for two days.

Can you hear the normal water pump sound with the hood down? I just checked both of ours, and the noise is identical. It's very faint, but you can hear it with the hoods closed. I can definitely feel the water flow through the hoses on both.

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11587
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Water Pump DOA

Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:33 pm

rt84vhf wrote:Read your blog post. Just wanted to ask about the noise and the temperature of the inverter lid. Are you saying that your inverter lid, once cooled completely after a drive, will stay that way while charging? I just checked mine after a 100 mile day, and it's fairly warm while charging on L1. My wife's is completely cold, but it's been sitting for two days.

Can you hear the normal water pump sound with the hood down? I just checked both of ours, and the noise is identical. It's very faint, but you can hear it with the hoods closed. I can definitely feel the water flow through the hoses on both.


Actually there is "likely" no amount of driving that will heat the inverter cover (actually the top part is the PDM) I am thinking cause I took it out on nearly 50 mile jaunt and it was cold as ice, not a hint of warmth. But when I felt the heat on the cover the other day after roughly 90 mins of charging, it was fairly warm. much warmer than I had ever felt before. Granted not a lot experience here but I only remember barely feeling a hint of warmth before and I could always hear water moving.

As far as the pitch; My tech surmised I could hear it because it was running at 100% so the noise itself would not be unusual. As it runs faster, the pitch gets higher and this was a pretty high pitched squeal.

Now why this only seems to heat up only when charging, I don't know. the PDM, inverter, etc. is pretty much being used all the time switching back and forth to either take power from the battery or regen power back in.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 11311 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 6640
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Water Pump DOA

Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:44 pm

rt84vhf wrote:Read your blog post. Just wanted to ask about the noise and the temperature of the inverter lid. Are you saying that your inverter lid, once cooled completely after a drive, will stay that way while charging? I just checked mine after a 100 mile day, and it's fairly warm while charging on L1. My wife's is completely cold, but it's been sitting for two days.

Can you hear the normal water pump sound with the hood down? I just checked both of ours, and the noise is identical. It's very faint, but you can hear it with the hoods closed. I can definitely feel the water flow through the hoses on both.

I'm also confused. On my currently leased '13, I'm fairly certain that when charging for a few hours on level 2, the PDM cover and all the metal of the stack is quite warm to the touch. It's nowhere near hot enough to burn but noticeably warm.

I recall the same thing happens on level 1, which I almost never do anymore.

IIRC, my leased '13 Leaf was exactly the same. So, I always figured this was normal.

If there's no been charging and I've been driving for say 20 to 40 miles, yeah, the cover of the PDM stack is not warm to the touch at all.

Charging for me normally results in a very faint pump sounds and I can feel vibration and fluid movement thru the hoses.

From the graphs on thanks to Chargepoint, my car and my former leased one on 208 volt L2 EVSEs, generally pull between 5.7 to 6.0 kW, sometimes a little higher. There are a couple EVSEs that I used to use (at a building I don't work at anymore) that were always lower in output (presumably lower voltage) like 5.7 kW than ones inside that building.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11587
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Water Pump DOA

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:48 pm

cwerdna wrote:
rt84vhf wrote:Read your blog post. Just wanted to ask about the noise and the temperature of the inverter lid. Are you saying that your inverter lid, once cooled completely after a drive, will stay that way while charging? I just checked mine after a 100 mile day, and it's fairly warm while charging on L1. My wife's is completely cold, but it's been sitting for two days.

Can you hear the normal water pump sound with the hood down? I just checked both of ours, and the noise is identical. It's very faint, but you can hear it with the hoods closed. I can definitely feel the water flow through the hoses on both.

I'm also confused. On my currently leased '13, I'm fairly certain that when charging for a few hours on level 2, the PDM cover and all the metal of the stack is quite warm to the touch. It's nowhere near hot enough to burn but noticeably warm.

I recall the same thing happens on level 1, which I almost never do anymore.

IIRC, my leased '13 Leaf was exactly the same. So, I always figured this was normal.

If there's no been charging and I've been driving for say 20 to 40 miles, yeah, the cover of the PDM stack is not warm to the touch at all.

Charging for me normally results in a very faint pump sounds and I can feel vibration and fluid movement thru the hoses.

From the graphs on thanks to Chargepoint, my car and my former leased one on 208 volt L2 EVSEs, generally pull between 5.7 to 6.0 kW, sometimes a little higher. There are a couple EVSEs that I used to use (at a building I don't work at anymore) that were always lower in output (presumably lower voltage) like 5.7 kW than ones inside that building.


duplicate
Last edited by DaveinOlyWA on Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 11311 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11587
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Water Pump DOA

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:48 pm

cwerdna wrote:
rt84vhf wrote:Read your blog post. Just wanted to ask about the noise and the temperature of the inverter lid. Are you saying that your inverter lid, once cooled completely after a drive, will stay that way while charging? I just checked mine after a 100 mile day, and it's fairly warm while charging on L1. My wife's is completely cold, but it's been sitting for two days.

Can you hear the normal water pump sound with the hood down? I just checked both of ours, and the noise is identical. It's very faint, but you can hear it with the hoods closed. I can definitely feel the water flow through the hoses on both.

I'm also confused. On my currently leased '13, I'm fairly certain that when charging for a few hours on level 2, the PDM cover and all the metal of the stack is quite warm to the touch. It's nowhere near hot enough to burn but noticeably warm.

I recall the same thing happens on level 1, which I almost never do anymore.

IIRC, my leased '13 Leaf was exactly the same. So, I always figured this was normal.

If there's no been charging and I've been driving for say 20 to 40 miles, yeah, the cover of the PDM stack is not warm to the touch at all.

Charging for me normally results in a very faint pump sounds and I can feel vibration and fluid movement thru the hoses.

From the graphs on thanks to Chargepoint, my car and my former leased one on 208 volt L2 EVSEs, generally pull between 5.7 to 6.0 kW, sometimes a little higher. There are a couple EVSEs that I used to use (at a building I don't work at anymore) that were always lower in output (presumably lower voltage) like 5.7 kW than ones inside that building.


I agree that this is all a bit strange. I am working at no more than 5760 watts but the PDM is noticeably warm in just over an hour of charging (just unplugged it after 75 mins) but a drive that bounces power thru the inverter at anywhere from -30 KW to 40-50 KW doesn't even give a hint of warmth.

is the power from the wall really that hard to convert? As far as the cover being warm, I have not noticed that on previous LEAFs but again, I had few opportunities to actually check this but did have one time during Summer when charging on L2 when the fans came on. That was something different but even then the PDM didn't warm up. But keep in mind, on the 2011 the charger was in the back. not sure why or even if that matters...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 11311 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 6640
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Water Pump DOA

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:59 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:But keep in mind, on the 2011 the charger was in the back. not sure why or even if that matters...

Yes. since you had an '11 Leaf before, the on-board charger was in the back, you likely never took the plastic hump cover off back there while charging to feel it. It wouldn't surprise me if none of the components under the hood of an '11 or '12 while charging would get warm, other than maybe the radiator and some of the hoses that run between the back and front.

In terms of "hard to convert", well even laptop power supplies w/35 to 100-ish watt output max get warm when charging a laptop and even hot (if CPU is maxed out and battery is low). Even 5 watt to 12 watt official Apple iPhone and iPad AC adapters also get warm to hot when charging.

For charging a Leaf on L2, it's drawing 5500+ watts and there are several hundreds watts of overhead w/some of that being waste heat. How hot does a 60 or 100 incandescent light bulb get? Or even a 13 watt CFL or a 10 watt LED (base portion, which may may/not have a heat sink)?

When the Leaf's moving, at least you have plenty of airflow thru the radiator and over/around the PDM stack via ram air.

(For others who may not know when we mean by PDM stack, we're talking about the whole stack pictured at http://articles.sae.org/11993/.)

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1183
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Water Pump DOA

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:45 pm

The liquid-cooled power stack on my 2015 was quite warm to the touch after L2 charging From VLBW to full with initial current about 26.6 amperes and voltage about 242 last night. It took a while for the small amount of waste heat to warm up the radiator and power stack, but I could feel some warmth after an hour. The pump was running and moving coolant, but not making much noise. The radiator and stack were cooled off by the time I left on my 26- mile, mostly freeway commute this morning. The stack temperature was just a little above ambient temperature when I arrived at my office. This shows that air flow through the radiator at highway speed effectively dissipates the waste heat from the DC-DC converter, inverter, and motor. I suspect the power stack and radiator would not get very warm if the fans ran all the time while charging, but that would create more noise, waste energy, and increase wear on the fans. The fans do cycle on when charging at high ambient temperatures to keep things from getting too hot.

Regarding the amount of heat generated--the charger is running at full capacity for most of the charge cycle while the inverter and motor see only occasional, short-duration operation at full load. I would still be concerned about localized hot spots (especially in the inverter and DC-DC converter) when driving with an inoperative coolant pump.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11587
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Water Pump DOA

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:46 am

Well I am thinking the only way I am able to drive is both a blessing and a curse. With the comments here, there is obvious heat buildup that I likely simply didn't notice before in my 2013 but the lack of a thermostat means the coolant is free flowing and even with a broken water pump or one that is working well below its norm like mine likely is is still plenty enough to keep the car from over heating.

The drawback is its waste heat that might have been useful in keeping cabin warmer. Granted, more complicated and expensive but its not like they don't have a lot of experience with this in gassers, right?

Either way, I drove 100+ miles yesterday with a QC and ZERO evidence of anything getting warm. For a metal jacketed object, even the slightest amount of energy would "take the chill" off and that is not happening to even the smallest degree.

Tomorrow it will be roughly 180 miles and 2 QCs. Doubt that will make any difference either...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 11311 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rt84vhf
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:33 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Oct 2016
Leaf Number: 303893
Location: OH

Re: Water Pump DOA

Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:04 am

As a related side note, just yesterday I noticed an update to LeafSpy was available. It now provides temperatures for additional internal components.

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